The B.S. Continues!!!

[moonpup]

The media dung beetle is still pushing this big ball of crap!

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=117485

"BRUNKENSEN, Germany — Albrecht von Goertz, the legendary designer and German aristocrat, died on October 27 at age 92. Goertz was responsible for the design of such classic automobiles as the BMW 507 and the Datsun 240Z, as well as such well-known industrial designs as the Mont Blanc fountain pen.

As an associate of Raymond Loewy and later as a New York-based freelance designer, Goertz designed furniture, cameras, appliances, boats, apparel, musical instruments and other products for such clients as Agfa, Custom Craft, Fuji, Polaroid, Puma and Rowenta. But it was his work on the 507 and later the BMW 503 that raised his stature in the automotive world.

In the early '60s, Goertz would again gain acclaim as the talent behind the design of the original Z-car. His name also has been linked with the equally stunning Toyota 2000GT.

BMW design chief Chris Bangle paid tribute to Goertz: "The entire design fraternity bids farewell to one of its most passionate champions, a man who was not only a car designer heart and soul but also creative and successful in every field of design."

What this means to you: Goertz's reputation put him on par with the great Italian designers."

[Carl Beck]

Hi Moonpup:

Thanks for letting us know...

While I personally am convinced that Mr. Goertz really had nothing to do with the actual design of the Datsun 240-Z, others still do. One person that my research lead me to, had worked for Mr. Goertz for a couple of years directly and then worked with him on a couple of projects years later. That person told me that the truth would come out when Mr. Goertz was no longer with us. He believed that it was indeed Goertz's hand on the design...that guided/refined it.

I'll revisit that person now and see if he can produce the drawings, documents and/or photographs that would prove Mr. Matsuo did in fact see the finished A550X at Yamaha Design, or that he did in fact see the original drawings, sketches etc done by Mr. Goertz - and then carried on from there.

In point of fact - I really do not care what the truth is - I simply want to know the truth. So far, years indeed decades of research on this subject and the man himself, leads me to belive that Mr. Goertz claim to the "design" of the Datsun 240-Z may have existed in his minds eye... but in fact, I can find nothing to support his personal perception as in any way linked to reality.

I will say that you can not follow the life of Mr. Goertz without developing some level of admiration for him in many regards. In a very real sense, he represented the "Great American Success Story". A Jewish Emigrant from Germany just prior to WW-II he came to America with a somewhat substandard formal education and no real assets other than having a Father that was a German Count. A title he much later inherited, upon the death of his older brother.

While the media like to refer to him as a "German Count"... being German myself and the great grandson of German Emigrants.. I say that Mr. Goertz was indeed an "American"... he became an American Citizen, spent his lifes work here and served in the US Army during WW-II. He also openly expressed his love and admiration for America, the freedoms we enjoy and the great opportunities we offer all our citizens.

I am personally sad to hear of his passing.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[sblake01]

From an article wirtten by Karl Ludvigsen in the March 2007 Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car magazine:

In 1961, Albrecht Goertz became on of the first occidental designers to take up the challenge of Japan. After five visits, Nissan assigned him a consulting contract. Working with their designers, he created the handsome Sylvia coue of 1965 and a fastback sports car that failed to reach production. After no little controversy, Nissan later grudgingly granted that "the personel who designed [the 240Z] were influenced by your fine work for Nissan and had the benefit of your designs."

I apologize for the spelling of "Silvia" but that was taken directly from the article.

[=Enigma=]

Any more word on this Carl? I'd love to hear what if anything your contacts can tell us now that Goertz has passed.

[cbudvet]

Although I am not THE Carl B. I am another Carl B. In Colin Shipways Essential Datsun Z book, it says pretty much the same as the article quoted above. Apparently the original prototype was made with Goertz and was to be powered by a Yamaha engine. When problems arose with the engine developed, the project was cancelled. This was is in 1964. Apparently, it is believed that Yamaha took the prototype to Toyota were it looks remarkedly like the 2000GT. The 240z was revived in 1966 after Goertz had left Nissan. It did retain some of the features of Goertz's designs. Goertz later criticized the 280zx in Car and Driver which led to Nissan denying any involvement from Goertz. Legal issues commenced and then the quote above was made by Nissan to keep Goertz happy. I will fire up my History Channel DVD on the Z car and see if they say anything different. Carl

[Carl Beck]

Any more word on this Carl? I'd love to hear what if anything your contacts can tell us now that Goertz has passed.

So Far Nothing... but I'm still pressing them.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

Hi Guys:

First - let me make it quite clear that "writers" or "reporters" for the automotive media are driven by a personal goal to get something/anything published. Since they are simply "reporting" what others say, they seem to feel no personal need to verify facts, nor even accurately quote their sources - rather they paraphrase, summarize, edit.... all in an attempt to put a story together that captures the readers interest and fits within a very confined column inch goal.

The paragraph that Stephen presents us with is a classic example of the above - let's take a look at it first. If you want the truth - it takes more than a couple of paragraphs and you have to do some reading...

"In 1961, Albrecht Goertz became one of the first occidental designers to take up the challenge of Japan."

Actually, Mr. Goertz states in his autobiography that he first thought of going to Japan News Year's Eve 1961 - and for the first few days of 1962 he tried to find out what major industries existed there. Hardly what any of us would report as "taking up the challenge of Japan".... and given that the thought popped into his mind a couple hours before 1961 ended... I don't think we'd report "in 1961".

Mr. Goertz tells us that since he had been successful in gaining work on his visits to Germany, he thought he'd try Japan next. He was simply looking for work, and in his autobiography he tells us what methods were successful for him.

"After five visits, Nissan assigned him a consulting contract."

After five visits where, to whom? - To Japan or to Nissan? It was after this fifth visit to Japan, and after he had been to Honda, Toyota, Mazda as well as many other Japanese companies, that he signed a contract for design consulting with Nissan. {note: unlike his work for BMW where he was contracted to Design a Sports Car - here he was hired as a design consultant}. Mr. Goertz tells us that he returned to Japan every three months seeking interviews/work so his fifth visit would have been either in Dec. of 1962 or more likely Jan. of 1963. {keep this in mind as it becomes important later}

At any rate he finally signed a ONE YEAR agreement with Nissan. Nissan's deployment of employees was related to its overall manpower, which meant that their Design Department consisted of one percent of the total. Otherwise, Goertz reports that the design departments were similar to what he had seen in the US and Europe, with closed-off sections, for the various models. He had his section, but was not permitted to see any of the others. (keep this in mind...as it actually supports Mr. Matsuo's contention that he had not seen the work of Goertz, nor did any of Matsuo's team work with Goertz}.

Goertz contract required that he visit Nissan Tokyo every seven to eight weeks. Goertz tells us that Nissan's HQ was in Tokyo, but the factory that housed their design dept. was in Yokohama. Five Designers were assigned to Goertz, the lead was Mr. Kimura and he spoke a little English..

Goetz writes..."At Nissan my first assignment was the "Silvia" coupe, based on the existing Nissan roadster. Work on that model had begun, but management did not like what it saw. Nissan's real reason for hiring me was that they wanted to produce a 2 liter sports car especially for the US market, mainly California, the land of the MG, Triumph, Jaguar, Porsche and Mercedes. The development of a 4 cylinder engine for the anticipated car was entrusted to Yamaha, and my designs and spec.'s were made over to them. Yamaha was a very large, diversified company that produced pianos and other musical instruments, as well as motorcycles, in their factory at Hamamatsu. Like Porsche, Yamaha had a center to which other companies assigned projects for development, and since Nissan had commissioned them to develop the prototypes for the new sports car, I was frequently at the Hamamatsu factory."

As you can see - Mr. Kimura had actually designed the Silvia by the time Goertz arrived. Goertz made a few minor - but very important changes to the overall shape and fine details. Maybe he should be credited with the design - but I would have reported that the Silvia was a joint effort between Kimura and Goertz at best.

In Chapter Ten Mr. Goetz continues....

"The 4 cylinder engine developed by Yamaha for the 2-liter sports car (eventually to be named the Fair Lady in Japan and later exported as the 240-Z) did not meet Nissan's expectations, and collaboration between the two companies came to an unpleasant end. The metal prototype produced by Yamaha to my design and specifications was shipped to Nissan and the project came to a halt."

Here Mr. Goertz is taking proper credit for the metal prototype, that was delivered to Nissan at the close of the project. This is very important to keep in mind - and to understand that it is the metal prototype that Nissan's in-house designation for was the Nissan 2000GT. Yamaha's designation for the Joint Nissan/Yamaha project was the A550X. Mr. Goertz's design, by his own account is reflected by the metal prototype delivered back to Nissan and always pictured outside the Nissan Plant:

See: <a href=http://zhome.com/History/Truth/A550Xvs240Z.htm TARGET=NEW> You Can Not Get There From Here </a>

OK - lets stop there for a minute.. and let some of this soak in... Next we will look at the complete legal statement from Nissan - and see how misleading Karl Ludvigsen's report really is....

Carl B.

[26th-Z]

If I may be so humble to chime in on this subject...

I generally agree with what Carl Beck has said above and, sorry cbudvet, do not agree with the later reference to Shipways. I'm a designer. I have two degrees in design and I have worked in various deign settings from studio to private. I have a very strong opinion of how the design process of the S30 "Z" evolved based upon my own research, photographs, and conversations with the people involved. I never met Mr. Goertz, but I have spoken to Mr. Matsuo several times. On one occasion, I had the opportunity to speak to Matsuo-san about some of my most important research material and heard his opinion of it which allowed me to place the information in context.

From what I can gather, Goertz worked for Nissan as a designer and was instrumental in the development of “A” prototype (not “the” prototype) that was powered by a Yamaha engine and later sold to Toyota. I understand that Goertz worked in contemporary techniques of clay modeling and introduced the media to Nissan. My understanding is that “the 240Z” was not revived after Mr. Goertz left Nissan. It wasn’t a 240Z to begin with. “It” was a sports car concept and very similar to sports car concepts being developed around the world at the time. The revival was Nissan setting up an independent studio in 1965 / 1966 to investigate a sports car design. I wouldn’t even say it was a revival; rather an extension of an ongoing corporate direction. In other words, Nissan wanted to market a sports car.

Matsuo-san was put in charge of the new studio and his initial designs were roadsters. His process is well documented. There is quite a bit of information available about the concept models and sketches that eventually became the S30 / 240Z. Another remarkable similarity occurred in 1967 with the Maserati Mistral. What we seem to be doing is grasping at straws for similarities to one specific design and forcing it into a story of evolution that simply doesn’t exist. Designers talk to each other, share ideas, and travel to shows and exhibitions to see what other designers have to present. Designers do not work in a vacuum. Of course we are going to see similarities. What we do not see from Goertz is his process that leads to the car we are driving. We do see the process from the studio of Matsuo-san. Goertz influence is anybody’s guess, but to give him credit is too obviously incorrect. No more than to give me credit for inventing roller-blades in a think-tank class in 1972. Or, for that matter, let’s give my ex-wife credit for inventing plastic squeeze bottles for ketchup!

Carl and Carl, I don’t think there is a “truth”. I think what I just described is the truth and that we are misted by one guy’s egotistical pursuit about how he should be getting all the credit. I’m a designer. I know how that goes.

[sblake01]

I have read much on the subject and the only thing we'll most likely agree on is that Goertz didn't design the 240Z as has been stated many times. What

the 'truth' actually is, I doubt we'll ever know. But it sure makes for interesting discussion. I read the article that I posted as some truth, some speculation, and simple repetition of misguided facts. Different set of words but the same basic feel. As Moonpup said, the B.S. continues into yet another year.

[Carl Beck]

Hi Stephen:

The bad news is the B.S. continues into yet another year - the good news is most the people interested in the Z now know that it is B.S. Progress maybe???

The quote from Nissan's Legal Letter is taken completely out of context by Mr. Ludvigsen - from the entire text of the letter from Nissan's Legal Department. In reviewing the complete letter, I believe you have to keep two things in mind.

1) Nissan's Corporate People in Japan, wanted to avoid the publicity that would have resulted from a prolonged legal action taking place in Detroit - sure to be reported by the American Media as "Japan vs Detroit" and drawing unwanted attention to the growing threat of the Japanese imports to the big three .... So the letter is intended to sooth Mr. Goertz's feathers and settle the dispute quickly and quitely.

2) it is a very purposefully and craftily "weasel worded" statement conceived by corporate lawyers.

With the above in mind - let's look at the entire text of that settlement letter...

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = == =

Dear Mr. Goertz:

At your request, we have examined the relevant evidence pertaining to the development of the highly successful Datsun 240Z which was first introduced in 1969.

You were retained by Nissan during the period from 1963 to 1965 as an automotive design consultant. During that period, you consulted with Nissan on the basic methods of styling a general sports car. You were also the sole design consultant on a two-liter sports car which Nissan was trying to develop as part of a joint venture with Yamaha. This car was not produced.

While it is our view that the design of the 240Z was the product of Nissan's design staff, Nissan agrees that the personnel who designed that automobile were influenced by your fine work for Nissan and had the benefit of your designs

Sincerely yours,

NISSAN MOTOR CO., LTD.

Signed Toshikuni Nyui

General Manager

Legal Dept.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

In the first place - Nissan stated right up front that the sports car Mr. Goertz worked on - was not produced. They then state firmly that it is their belief that the Datsun 240-Z was the work of their in-house people. Something that Mr. Ludvigsen either did not know - or chose to leave out by not quoting the entire sentence. (wonder why?). Seen in its entire context - we also have to keep in mind that Goertz Agreed to this statement - otherwise he wouldn't have settled.

He accepted the statement.... "the design of the 240-Z was the product of Nissan's design staff"... and he took the settlement money. I think any honest designer would have either had to accept that and live up to it - or rejected that wording and insist on proper credit for the design of the 240-Z. Goertz could have continued his "threatened law suite". Keep in mind it was only a threat - never went to court...

That sentence continued then "... the personnel who designed the 240-Z were influenced by your fine work for Nissan and had the benefit of your designs"....

THAT Translates to:

A) as a result of Mr. Goertz's fine consulting work - several design techniques were improved or added to Nissan's in house design capabilities.... ie. Nissan started using full size clay models during the design conceptual stages, Nissan Designers also started rendering design concepts in pastels.. That is really the "fine work" that Mr. Goertz did for Nissan's Design Dept....??? I believe it may have been....

knowing what previously displeased upper management - is just as important a "benefit " as knowing what previously pleased them. Goertz's concepts for the Nissan 2000GT didn't cause much pleasure with Nissan's Upper Level Management.. and the project was cancelled... So the "benefit" written about was most likely that of knowing what NOT to do again.

While Mr. Matsuo maintains that he did not see Mr. Goertz's work - nor did any of the people that worked on the team Goertz worked with - serve on Mr. Matsuo's team..... Mr. Matsuo's boss and his boss's boss certainly did.

Reading Mr. Matsuo's account - you can see that his management chain was not too encouraging of his original "Plan A" and they seemed more than a bit gun shy of making any real push to bring a new Sports Car Concept out of the design studio - and put it in front of upper management for approval to proceed from conceptual styling to automotive engineering. At least during the period from 1965 to 1967.

{ if you don't have a copy of Mr. Matsuo's account - e-mail me and I'll loan you my digital back up copy beck@becksystems.com}

Note also that Nissan's Legal Response - which Goertz Agreed To... states that he was employed by them From 1963 To 1965. It does NOT say "into 1965" nor "through 1965"... it says "TO 1965" meaning that Goetz left sometime before 1965 started. However in his autobiography - Goertz says that he worked at Nissan for four years.

The single most striking observation in Mr. Goertz autobiography - is the fact that he covers at least seven pages with his original sketches and pictures of clay models of the BMW 507 he did design. He also publishes his original sketches of his unsolicited and rejected Porsche design of 1958, as well as sketches of a later proposal to BMW - - - Yet when he claims to have designed the 240-Z - he can only show pictures of the finished product... the Datsun 240-Z.

I believe there is lots of truth to be found here - the truth is that the initial stories written about the design of the 240-Z and associating it with Goertz - were all too typical of the writing we see in the automotive media... just like the one that started this thread. Very poorly researched, incorrectly summarized, phrases taken completely out of context, and misquotes galore!

Goertz got just as caught up in them as the authors inventing them..and having failed to set the record straight from the beginning - he started to believe the myth himself... The truth is his own autobiography defeats his false claim to the design.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Mr Camouflage]

Goertz is also incorrectly credited with the design of the Nissan Silvia. It's true he was a "Consultant" on that project too, though he didn't actually "design" that car either, even though some websites that should know better credit him at the cars designer.

http://zhome.com/History/DesignEvolution/DesignEvolutionZ.htm

http://zhome.com/History/Silvia.htm

http://zhome.com/History/Truth/GoertzMyth.htm

http://zhome.com/History/Truth/TheTrueStory.htm

http://zhome.com/History/Truth/GoertzSpeech.htm

http://zhome.com/History/history.html

About time some of these pages were updated.

[Carl Beck]

Yes, I report that he is credited with the design of the Silvia - in most of the articles I've written - because Nissan Did. If I had been at Nissan at the time - I would have credited both him and Kimura. One can only refute one Myth at a time

Carl