Electric Car Progress

[Carl Beck]

It seem to me that the Government should be rewarding technology like Tesla...

Hi Jay:

I think the Tesla is a neat car. No doubt about it. Building a few of them for the rich and famous (at $80K) certainly puts them on a pedestal - that the average Joe can admire, and at some point in the future - hope to attain. Kind of like the beginning of the auto industry really. It might take years and years to get the technology to a level of reliability and a price point that is affordable.

One thing I am sure of - you really don't want the Politicians picking the technology you will have to pay for. It has been a disaster every time, in every country when Politicians decide what technology wins and which do not.

Did we really set up "the government" to reward technology? Or do we really believe that free markets reward needed innovation?

Nonetheless, I believe that we would need to see a far more comprehensive outline of the entire "electric car" environment - before we could make any informed decisions as to their real desirability.

As I said, moving the "problems" from the car to other points - without knowing full well what the resulting effects will be - simply doesn't make sense to me.

For Example:

1. What would the impact on our existing Electrical Power Grid be - if tens of millions of electric cars were plugged in every day/night for recharging?

2. Wind Power you say?? Anyone that takes a serious look at the approach comes away with the realization that it is simply silly, for anything other than power to a farm in the middle of nowhere.

However conversion of the trucking fleet to natural gas does have some practical application today.

3. Do you really want, or would you really buy a car with a 40 mile range that cost as much or more than a conventional vehicle? Or do you really want everyone else too?

4. We would need at least 10 Nuclear Power Plants per State - yes 500 new one's - to provide clean energy for an all electric fleet. Plus an all new power grid, that would not fail from minor glitches just to distribute that load. "I'm sorry boss, I can't make to work today because the power was off last night and my battery is dead".

5. Hydrogen Fuel Cells would make sense, IF - there was a very cheap electrical supply to crack the hydrogen out of water to begin with. Last time I checked - the Water to Hydrogen to Fuel Cell to Electric motor - and back to Water Cycle was only 23% efficient. Meaning that it is only feasible from an economic perspective if electrical power costs 1/2 what the average cost is today. That takes us back to 500 nuclear power plants. (A small country like France could get there in a decade because they already get 70% of their power from nuclear power plants).

As far as I can tell - between now and 2050 at least - we need to develop all possible energy sources and apply them where they make economic sense. Oil, Natural Gas, Coal and Nuclear are however the only real alternatives for the next couple decades.

It is neat to have an $80K electric toy - and that really is all the Tesla is. What we need is a 1000lb all carbon fiber 240-Z, that sells for $18,995.00 and gets 50+ mpg. with a small 4 cylinder turbo diesel. Mass produced in China - with no EPA, OSHA, et al - it could be done today.

Make it cheap and fun - so I can afford a second car to use - so I can keep my Pick-up Truck parked in the driveway when I really don't need to use it. If I can only afford either the Pickup or an economy car - I'll have to take the Pickup because it does everything I need - where an economy car can not. Gee - it sounds like 1973 all over again. A DATSUN 1200 coupe was $1895.00 and got 40 mpg.

Interesting discussion none the less

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Oiluj]

Saw a Tesla "up-close" last weekend and got a quick tour of the car byt the owner who saw me checking it out.

Looks like good build quality and designed for a specific purpose. Not to mention those things are d**m quick!

Short range will be addressed as the technology and infastructure catches-up. In cold parts of the country, some parking lots already have 100VAC plugs for engine heaters at each stall.

The cost of fossil fuels will only go up. In 10 years I expect an electric compact car will be in the same cost index as a standard gas powered vehicle. I also expect that more effiecient hydro-carbon hybrid vehicles will be competing as well.

[Mr Camouflage]

For electric sports cars, I hope they develop some sort of man made exhaust noise system. One that makes a nice snarl when getting on it rather than the quiet response.

Bruce

Man made? I think it would sound like that other man made engine noise:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4210407.stm

In other electric car news:

This should be going into production (ok, its a hybrid)

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2009/01/a-convertible-i.html

I read that Lotus (who build the chassis for the Tesla) may be venturing into the electric car market. Is the Market big enough for 2 Teslas?

[biddljj]

What if your new Tesla came with it's own Solar Array ?

What if the paint on the car created Electricity ?

In a way.... I wish the cost of gas stayed high... Just to power research....

Jay

Not just a Z - zdisease

[doradox]

How about a cool F1 car sound.

www.tekzoned.com/instest/

Steve

[zhead240]

electric is not as green as people think it is. E=mc2. energy is not created or destroyed. coal,natural gas, nuclear, oil, solar, hydro or wind power is needed to produce electricity. wind, solar and hydro are considered green sources but they are a small percentage of the total. basicly more oil will be needed to meet the demand unless there is a drastic change. also the batteries will create an enviormental hazard. now we ship car batteries to tiwan for recycle because we don't want to ruin our enviroment. that's just one battery per vehicle. what will happen when we have to despose of a dozen batteries per every 100,000 miles. i think the electric car will be a major mistake if the big three put all their marbles in this basket. combustion is here to stay for quite some time.

[Carl Beck]

I read that Lotus (who build the chassis for the Tesla) may be venturing into the electric car market. Is the Market big enough for 2 Teslas?

If competition drove the price down to around $45K - there might be a big enough market to take 10,000 per year... maybe 12,000 per year.

Here in Pinellas County, Florida - most M.D.'s and Lawyers only drive 5 miles or less to/from work each day. They'd have the status they want, with a very near, rare electric car..... and they would save the Porsche/BMW for weekends.

Florida actually has a power grid that is in better shape than most of the country and we do have nuclear power plants, with more being built...

Yes, I could see a small market for two.... but that really has no impact on the existing 100,000,000 vehicles in daily use here in the US.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Oiluj]

electric is not as green as people think it is. E=mc2. energy is not created or destroyed. coal,natural gas, nuclear, oil, solar, hydro or wind power is needed to produce electricity. wind, solar and hydro are considered green sources but they are a small percentage of the total. basicly more oil will be needed to meet the demand unless there is a drastic change. also the batteries will create an enviormental hazard. now we ship car batteries to tiwan for recycle because we don't want to ruin our enviroment. that's just one battery per vehicle. what will happen when we have to despose of a dozen batteries per every 100,000 miles. i think the electric car will be a major mistake if the big three put all their marbles in this basket. combustion is here to stay for quite some time.

To some extent, I agree with zhead240, but one has to evaluate both sides of the equation...

1) Power plants are typically are more efficient than the family car when it comes to converting hydrocarbons to usable energy. This is especially true, if as pointed out by Carl, you have nuclear powered plants. That's why electric cars can make the valid claim of operating at and equivilent cost of 100 mpg compared to gasoline powered vehicles. That's still twice as effficient as a Prius.

2) I don't have any data to back this up, but my guess is that the environmental impact of the additional batteries is probably no worse, (and probably less), than the emmisons caused by all those 100,000,000 vehicles inefficiently burning gas and diesel every day. I'm not tring to trivialize the battery recycling / disposal problem, but you need to also consider the positives, not just the negatives.

3) What I'd really like to see is more hydrogen fuel cell research. I was involved in a small, catalytic hydrogen generator company at one time and it looks like a promising approach. We actually had a fuel cell powered demo car. All that exits the tailpipe is water vapor. Of course, that requires energy, be it chemical or electric to release the hydrogen from water, or a safe means to store hydrogen.

To make electric or hydrogen powered cars viable, you need the infastructure. I think that's really the biggest hurdle to overcome. Vehicle cost will come down to be comparable to fossil fuel powered vehicles as consumer demand, (and sales), increase. Till then, as long as it's just a novelty market, electric cars such as the Tesla or Karma will remain a rich men's toys.

Just my 2 cents. The soap box is now open...

[Caen Fred]

I think that it would really be neat to have induction tarmac. In other way, turning the asphalt into one big Slot car track without the need for center rail nor the brush. Look at it this way, Z are also very good in Scalextric world

As for the sound, a big surround system and preset sounds of what ever you want to play. 6 with triples, SU, or V8, V12 or Grizzly bear roar, just pump up the volume

[doradox]

The power grid requirements aren't as big a problem as one might think. The power grid is already underutilized at night when most cars would be charging. Also it's unlikely that electric cars would become a big drain in a short time, allowing the electric companies time to upgrade as demand increased.

Currently lead/acid batteries are almost comletely recycled now. No reason to believe the same model wouldn't be followed in the future for whatever battery technology is used for electric cars.

One thing many don't consider.. how much is 100mpg worth to you? If one is buying 20 gallons a week @ $4 a gallon, going from 15 to 30 MPG saves $40 a week. So that is worth about $2000 a year. Not bad. However going from 30 MPG to 45 MPG only saves $14 a week or about $700 a year. From 45 to 60MPG only $6 a week/$300 a year. You can see where this is going. I get 30 MPG in my car now and there's no way I'm buying a Prius to get 45 MPG. One of the reasons a Prius gets good mileage is there are lots of little conventional tricks like (boring) low rolling resistance tires and it's (ugly)aerodynamic shape. I don't want that crap. My point is, who is going to be willing to accept the compromises to save what amounts to not much money. Going from 30 MPG to 100 MPG save $1400 a year in my example. So how much performance loss and inconvenience am I willing to accept to save $1400 a year. Not a whole lot.

Steve

[Oiluj]

The economic argument Steve makes is valid.

That's why we are still driving 11 & 12 year old cars. My wife's 96' SC 300 has decent performance and gets 23 mpg. In fact, I just had the uhpolstery redone on the wife's car since we plan to keep it for several more years, at the very least.

My 97' ES 300 gets about 24.5 mpg. Add to that that my commute is about 5 miles, it's not worth the expense of replacing perfectly good vehicles.

[IBZINYA]

Im glad to see I'm not the only one around here to feel this way... I think of my Z as eco friendly.. it not only gets good mpg but I saved all that metal from the scrap heap. The longer you drive "one" car, the longer you keep "one" more from being produced. This saves not only the mined mineral content but the stored energy output for assembly. I plan to drive mine as long as replacement parts are available, or my license is revoked.... which ever occures first.