what is the TRUE definition of "Series 1"

[HS30-H]

I give my big support to Alan(HS30-H),his post told me an important point of view.

At least someone who broadcasts his article on the web/book(including me) especially journalists should do pay attention for this.I think Alan told me this in his posts.

Started from 10/69,there must be parts amendments almost every month or every a couple of month.I remember someone here said, "(worker in assembly line said) what changes do we have today?" I like that.And it is almost true I think.Personaly I do not look into 240Z as 1,2,3. I look into like this, is this car 10/69 or 11/69 or 12/69? etc.

By the way,in Japan we do not say Series 1,2,3,.We just do not have.We refer "44 (yon-yon, 1969)" " 45( yon-go, 1970)" like that.

Alan,let me introduce this,I really like your word in PM for me,I apologise this prior to get permission.

"... This is the FAMILY that we should look at. There are brothers and sisters in this family, but there is no 'King' that is superior to the others. That is what I believe..."

I started to think my 240Z based on this point of view.

Thank you Kats. Your kind words of support are very much appreciated.

I too learned to refer to my cars as "S44", "S45", "S46" etc etc and I have to say that it makes a lot more sense to look at the build date rather than the somewhat abstract terminology of "Model Year" and "Title" etc when the point of the discussion is the specification of the car as it left the factory.

When you look at all the available sources of information ( TSBs, sales brochures, parts lists and workshop manuals, as well as the extremely informative Nissan 'Service Shuho' documents issued in Japan ) it is fairly easy to see that a fair few of the rolling amendments / updates / improvements that were applied to the cars where phased in when convenient or prudent for the factory, rather than with thought to "Model Year" or any "Series". We can also see anomalous cars that are what we could call 'in-betweenies' - with details that don't tie-in with our pigeonholing.

I believe that looking at the whole picture, rather than just one market or one model, can be educational for all of us. I don't see what is so controversial about that?

The Z is a world class sports car. A sports GT. Always has been. Still is. It has an incredible history - world wide. A great deal of that history is the "American story".

Yes, it is indeed. But when I read quotes like that I sometimes wonder whether people forget that these cars were designed, engineered and built in Japan. Now, when you read that I can't be 100% sure that you think about this in the same way that I do. In my opinion, the Japanese story encompasses ALL of the stories. It is a Japanese product.

Chris, you mentioned sitting around in a bar talking about all the small differences in these cars, as we have done many times. It is hard enough figuring out the changes in the HLS cars, when you throw in the HS, PS and the like my head hurts. I am always amazed at the level of knowledge that Alan has across the whole family. I look forward to meeting him one day, sitting in a pub and talking S30's.

Fred,

I'd like nothing better. I consider that an open invitation, and it would be GREAT fun if it were in Japan. Two Mohammeds going to the mountain, so to speak :classic:

Cheers,

Alan T.

[hls30.com]

... I just can't get over why we didn't get the ZL, the 432, or the ZG. ...

Pretty much comes down to that. Apply the five "W"s and there is the source of more thread and conversation issues than bolts with a 10mm head used by Nissan.

Will

[sblake01]

What I do remember about the 240z, as well as other Datsun advertising here is the US, it that the price of the car was always something that was stressed in the ads. If the ZL, the 432, or the ZG had been built for the North American Market, it probably wouldn't have fit into those parameters.

[Carl Beck]

In this zhome article

http://zhome.com/History/DesignChanges.htm

The lowest VIN titles as a '71 is claimed to be 006072. Well, I have 005657 and it's titled as a '71. Not that it adds much to the discussion, but hey, I have the lowest VIN '71 240 (at least until someone comes around with a lower one).

HI Zack:

Thanks for the update - do you know where the car was originally sold/titled?

regards,

Carl B.

[hls30.com]

What I do remember about the 240z, as well as other Datsun advertising here is the US, it that the price of the car was always something that was stressed in the ads. If the ZL, the 432, or the ZG had been built for the North American Market, it probably wouldn't have fit into those parameters.

Stephen,

Would you really have expected a ZL, 432 or ZG to have been at the same price as a 240Z? If the cars were in the same direct price ratio here as in Japan, I know they would have sold a bunch of them too-though at the expense for selling a 240Z in many if not most cases.

How many people in 1970-1973 knew there were Gnose kits available? Of those how many paid to get one-certianly if more people had been given the choice, more of the kits(cars) would have been sold even with a higher price than the 240Z. Expectiing to buy a ZL, ZG, or 432 at the same price as a 240Z even in Japan would not have been any more realistic then than it would be now.

Look how many sales of other cars were lost when the 240Z hit town, I can't imagine a buying Etype customer or two wouldn't have spent money on a Gnose, head light cover equiped Datsun that was still massively cheeper than an Etype, but with somewhat similar styling. That doesn't even get into performance differences.

I know of at least one member who might have an opinion on that...

Will

[geezer]

Will - I certainly didn't have any knowledge of a G-nose or any other variations at the time. Even then I would have been considered a hardcore car guy, but simply wasn't exposed to anything other than what was on the showroom floors and on the lots. I ogled over the Z and would have bought one but that would have been seriously frowned upon by my employer. I was just blown away with them. I am only now being educated by the wordwide perspective. Great input from everyone.

[sblake01]

Stephen,

Would you really have expected a ZL, 432 or ZG to have been at the same price as a 240Z? If the cars were in the same direct price ratio here as in Japan, I know they would have sold a bunch of them too-though at the expense for selling a 240Z in many if not most cases.

I never said that I would have expected them to be the same price. The ads spoke of the low prices of their cars compared to anything else in their particular market. The ZL, 432, etc. would not have fit in that marketing strategy, no more than the Bluebird would have fit the 510 market, as they would have cost more. I bought a 240Z (#488) in early 1970 because it was the only sports car I could afford at the time. I wanted a 'Vette. That's how my interest in Datsun began.

[dogma420]

steve--

what happened to the low vin 70?

[Walter Moore]

I didn't spot any mention of the non-USA/Canada market LHD cars yet in this thread. Might be worth reminding ourselves of the HLS30 models that were exported to countries such as France, Germany, Belgium, Portugal etc etc, and which don't fit all that neatly into the "Series" pigeonholes. Makes things a little more complicated when you start looking at the details of those cars.

And I'm still interested to see an official Nissan Japan-sourced document that mentions "Series" numbers. Anybody got something that mentions the 'S' word specifically?

No mention either of the other S30-series Z models that were contemporary with the '240Z' ( apart from 26th-Z; who will be mentioned in despatches ) - but that's par for the course here I guess.

My mantra: Look at the whole family to fully understand each family member..............

Alan T.

When this thread started I almost commented on this, but I wanted to wait until Alan chimed in because this is one of the (perhaps few) subjects where I agree with him. I find the whole "series" thing very contrived, and trying to force a Japanese car into the U.S. style "model year" mold even more so.

The U.S. model year pattern is useful here because every July G.M., Ford, and Chrysler shut all their plants down for two weeks starting over the July 4th holiday and do a full "Model year changeover". Then after they get the line running again they basically do not change anything until at least the Christmas shutdown. So all cars made from July to December are identical. (or are supposed to be...) Only minor changes can be made over the Christmas shutdown because it lasts only one week. The result is that all parts for cars of a particular "Model Year" are interchangeable.

Car makers outside the U.S. have never really embraced such a scheme.

(Which produces such odd circumstances as there being a 82 Corvette and a 84 Corvette, but no 83 model, at least officially.)

I also think that the whole "Designed for the U.S. market" theme that seems to flow from so many sources regarding the 240Z is the height of arrogance.

Nissan is a Japanese company, and has been pointed out on this site before their sales in the U.S. in the late 60's were minimal. Granted they did adapt the car to our market. Their U.S. division may even have advertised it that way. But for them to have had known in advance that it would turn out to be as popular as it became would have required a pretty powerful crystal ball or something.

[geezer]

Hi Walter - Just a few observations I would like to comment on.

-Contrived, Yes, but I think, not for any malicious attempt to re-write history. Just a way to explain to an ordinary Joe like me with some clarity and make some sense of the timeline, which, in the big picture, all other variations would certainly be included. I grew up with the ability (as did all my buddies) to identify anything that came down the road. You can't readily do that in this case.

-It doesn't force anything into a "model year mold"

-I am a big fan of logic and do not believe there is a bit of truth about being designed solely for the US. If they possible could have provided the US with other models without undermining themselves they would have. That is if, they even had the ability at the time to produce the vast amount of different parts that would be needed to build a large volumne of additional models. Also, markets had to be explored with whatever the designers had developed. These are decisions made solely on feasibility and economics.

-If anyone wants to use the term "SERIES", so what, or "FAMILY".

[sblake01]

steve--

what happened to the low vin 70?

Nissan (Pomona Valley Datsun) bought it back from me a little over a year after I had bought it for what I paid for it. Some dealers, Datsun as well as others, were doing that with certain cars back then. Obviously, they knew something that we didn't. My brother had a Boss 429 and Ford actually bought his back for more than he paid for it. I bought a 72 later in the year with the money. Don't remember the vin of the 72 and I really didn't like it as much as the 70. I haven't been able to find it (the 70) on any of the lists or registeries.

[Kathy & Rick]

Great thread! I read every entry with much interest and enthusiasm since I've been w/Z's almost since the beginning. Arne, Carl, and others had excellent inputs re:recognition factors. I had begun to try to trace the variables for the first few years, then the number of 240-Z subjects available to observe began to decline. But I've begun to pick it back up again since being introduced to Carl Beck, and he and I are exchanging information.

I usually depend on VIN number to establish my dividing lines, although this is not 100% accurate due to events that may occur during the production of a particular car.

But I will share these observations to help everyone as best I can (all VIN are HLS-30:)

Latest VIN w/o rear window defroster, no tinted glass: #00418 11/69 George Panko

Earliest VIN w/rear window defroster, tinted glass: #00965 1/70 Joe Novak

It must have been envisioned to provide a rear window defroster at a later date since

the '69's had a blank in the console where the switch could be installed, as it was in '70.

Latest VIN w/flow-thru air outlets on rear hatch: #20231 1/71

Earliest VIN w/flow-thru air outlets on upper quarters: #22021 2/71 Bob Iriye

The problem of swirling exhaust gases leaking into the cargo area was resolved

by relocating the flow-thru air outlets to a less susceptible place.

Latest VIN w/vertical rear window defroster: #57328 12/71 Andy Lesick

Earliest VIN w/horizontal rear window defroster: #65065 1/72

The problem of a narrow field of rear vision after defrosting was rectified

by reorienting the rear window defroster elements 90 degrees to horizontal.

The specific production dates and VIN numbers on either side of each

transition is somewhere between the upper and lower dates/VINs found so

far in the study.

All Z Best........... Rick