Asking to much?

[280z1975]

Did anyone see his yellow '77 280Z that was listed with a buy it now price of $16,500? That car was beautiful! The only problem is that I would want to drive it all of the time. If one had the money I guess buy both and park the BPE and drive the yellow '77 280Z with 42k on it.

I have a ? .... Why is it that most people out there would spend 25-35k on a regular normal car which WILL drop in value the second you take it off the lot and continue to slide into worthlessness given enough time.

But when it comes to a car that is a classic and costs 17k a lot of people are worried about driving it. It's a car, right.

It's different if you want to buy a car as an investment (not a wise move in my book, there is a point where each cars bubble will burst) or if you plan to put it in a museum. But Carl already did a great post a while back about when a car becomes a trailer queen (the top level) it ceases to become a car and becomes art.

I say, buy it, drive it, enjoy it, love it, and what happens, happens. The car is only as valuable as the value you get out of it. If it sits in your garage all the time and you don't enjoy a car which sits in your garage, you won't have a great value.

Oh well, enough of my rant ....

[76Datsun280z]

I have a ? .... Why is it that most people out there would spend 25-35k on a regular normal car which WILL drop in value the second you take it off the lot and continue to slide into worthlessness given enough time.

But when it comes to a car that is a classic and costs 17k a lot of people are worried about driving it. It's a car, right.

It's different if you want to buy a car as an investment (not a wise move in my book, there is a point where each cars bubble will burst) or if you plan to put it in a museum. But Carl already did a great post a while back about when a car becomes a trailer queen (the top level) it ceases to become a car and becomes art.

I say, buy it, drive it, enjoy it, love it, and what happens, happens. The car is only as valuable as the value you get out of it. If it sits in your garage all the time and you don't enjoy a car which sits in your garage, you won't have a great value.

Oh well, enough of my rant ....

__________________

Great post, I really agree with you on that. Does anybody have a link To Carl's post on the trailer queen? I'd love to read it!

[WingZr0]

It's different if you want to buy a car as an investment (not a wise move in my book, there is a point where each cars bubble will burst) or if you plan to put it in a museum. But Carl already did a great post a while back about when a car becomes a trailer queen (the top level) it ceases to become a car and becomes art.

Good point.

The one car I like the most when I was a kid, (I am allowed to say this), is the 1938 Phantom Corsair, now located in Las Vegas American Auto Meuseum I believe.

It was an all Black car built in the 1930's off a Cord Chassis by an auto engineer named Rust Heinz who was essentially the same type of cat as Tucker was but only 20 years earlier.

Rust wanted to make a Revolutionary brand new car with nothing but the best art deco streamline styline.

He designed the Phantom Corsair to look like something as long as a 1930's Bugatti, low like a dropped Z and aero dynamically styled like a arrow.

With vented hood slats, long sloping hatch from front windshild to the rear bumper and all the windows including the front that looked like a Choped '49 Mecury Hot Rod which came out 15+ years later!

Oh yes, it had wheel covers on all four.... wait a minute, here goes a photo,

mo info

http://www.tias.com/7760/PictPage/1922007630.html?mall=%2Fstores%2Fstev;itemKey=1922007630;store=%2Fstores%2Fstev;catId=Transportation-Automotive-Cars;itemNo=PAT0816BB4

http://en.allexperts.com/e/p/ph/phantom_corsair.htm

Well the story goes, from the book I read, was that since Rust was so ahead of his someone broke into his house looking to steal the desing plans to the prototype and killed Rust in the processe of doing so. Not sure if ever found the plans though.

After that the idea of Rust's dream car ended leaving the prototype as the only Phontom Corsair built.

one mean peice of rolling ART !

~Z~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THY SHALL NOT COVEAT THY NEIGHBORS PARTS

[DougN]

It looks like in the back round that he's got some real nice Z's, see if you can find them.

You are correct, actually, this guy has 15 or 16 very nice Z's, most of which are low mileage orginal 240Z's. Also has #1 of 3000 10th anniversay special 280ZX, as well as 2 of the factory restoration cars and another even lower mileage Black Pearl than the one he is selling. Probably the most amazing collection of Z's I have ever had the privledge to see.

[7T1240]

Hi Guys:

I know the car - and the description is conservative. 28K miles, and all but brand new.. You could easily part that car out on e-bay and get twice the price. Or you could buy a very nice Black Pearl with 60K to 90K miles for $10K - then spend two years and $30K on it ... and it still wouldn't be as nice as this original car. At this point in time, $25K is still a bargain. For that matter, for cars like this anything under $35K is a good buy, because you can still find them. Five years from now you won't seen any for sale..

FWIW,

Carl B.

Hi Carl and all,

I find discussions about Z values to be one of many interesting parts of this hobby. (Perhaps in an attempt to justify my expenditures!) I've been attracted to the Black Pearl cars: a.) Since I narrowly missed out on one repo'd by a Couer d'alene bank a number of years back, and b.) since I read on zhome that this model variation is considered to be one of the most collectable. I'd like to understand a little bit better why this is so.

Carl, why would the car potentially have double the value if it were parted out? And why are nice Black Pearls ascending in value to this extent?

Thanks, Gary S.

[76Datsun280z]

I would assume that a Black Pearl would bring more because there wasn't as many of them made and it was a special edition model.

[Carl Beck]

Carl, why would the car potentially have double the value if it were parted out?

Hi Gary (everyone)

Well - double the value may have been a bit of an exaggeration. -vbg- However, used, but exceptionally good condition parts are selling quickly on E-Bay (especially as they all become No Longer Available from Nissan). You don't have to spend much time following the prices they bring - to realize that it could be quite profitable to part some of these exceptionally low mileage examples out at this point - and resell the individual parts.

Anyone that has started buying the parts necessary to just "refresh" a first generation Z recently will tell you that $10K doesn't buy much... Hold all those individual parts off the market for another 5 years and they will likely double in price.

And why are nice Black Pearls ascending in value to this extent?

Thanks, Gary S.

It's not just the Black Pearls... it's all the first generation Z's.

The Classic, Collectible and Special Interest Cars that have some interesting history or story, in addition to limited quantities always bring higher prices than those that don't. Truthful stories or facts about a specific model simply add interest... talking points if you will ... that aren't associated with the rest of their production brothers.

a) The Black Pearls were actually a "Test Market" to see if American Buyers would buy a Black Z Car. They sold quickly when they hit the Dealerships - and in 79 the 280ZX was available in Black (aka Black Gold!). For the most part of the 50's, 60's and 70's Black Sports Cars didn't sell well.

The Sports Appearance Package - a must if the Black Pearl is to bring top dollar.

c) While Nissan has never released the exact number of Black Pearls sold - they did say that they had at least one for ever Dealer. Believe it or not - some Dealers didn't want one, and other Dealers wound up with three or four. So it is "generally" believed that about 1000 of them were produced for 78.

This also limits farther the number that survive in tact - there will be 200 regular production 280Z's for each Black Pearl. (1,000 out of 200,000). How many do you think are left out there in excellent all original condition?

d). Collectors seem to favor owning either the First of the Breed or the Last of the Breed. So 1970 and 1978 Z's will lead the price ranges. The "mid-year" cars will always sell for less. The First of the Breed are considered the cleanest design, most true to the designers intent. The last of the Breed usually have the most "improvements" based on a few years in the hands of the consumers. The 78 Black Pearl is simply the most unique, of the last of the Breed.

FWIW, just some general statements... nothing is absolute in the Collector Market..

Carl

[Carl Beck]

You are correct, actually, this guy has 15 or 16 very nice Z's, most of which are low mileage orginal 240Z's. Also has #1 of 3000 10th anniversay special 280ZX, as well as 2 of the factory restoration cars and another even lower mileage Black Pearl than the one he is selling. Probably the most amazing collection of Z's I have ever had the privledge to see.

Hi DougN (everyone)

He has The Finest collection of First Generation Z that you will find in North America.(as well as a very exceptional 84 50th AE and a 96 350Z Roadster). Like about seven or eight other individuals that are serious Collectors, he's been "buying in early" - anticipating seeing the First Generation Z's follow the Big Healey's of the 60's.. (now selling above $100K in some cases).

First Generation Z's are now parked beside Ferrari's and very rare Porsches/BMW's in several Private Collections today.

At 62 years of age, I've seen this happen several times. I sold my 55 T-Bird for $1,500.00 in 1970... sold my 62 Corvette a few years earlier for $2,500.00 (and that was top dollar). Knowing what to do and having the funding necessary to do it - are two different things. Right now I know at least seven or eight guys that have both knowledge and funds... The problem is finding the "perfect" original, super low mileage cars they want - paying for them is no issue.

This small circle of serious Collectors - will continue to expand over the next five to eight years and the market values of the cars they want will be driven up and up. That in turn will drag up the #3 condition cars as well.

Has anyone found a #4 or #5 Condition 55 T-Brid lately? Found any #4 or #5 Condition 64 Pontiac GTO's?... and #4 or #5 Condition 62/67 Corvettes? E- Type's? At some point there were hundreds if not thousands of them around.... The same thing is happening to 240-Z's and is being followed closely by the 280Z's.

Very soon we Enthusiasts won't be able to afford to refresh nor restore our 240-Z's... so many of them will be driven into the ground, or simply rust past economic repair/restoration.. and they will wind up being parted out (or purchased with the intent of cannibalization).

In a very short few more years - we won't have any "newbies" here in their 20's and 30's looking for a 240-Z that they can buy for less than $10K and drive daily... Just as no one expects to buy a 55/57 T-Brid for anything less than $45K (restorable) or $65K restored today. (the Top End T-Brids are over $225K now for an F Types).

Sad but true... it's a very predictable life cycle for the Classics...

FWIW,

Carl

BTW -

#3 - Very Good: Completely operable original or "older restoration" showing

wear. Also, a good amateur restoration, all presentable and serviceable

inside and out. Plus combinations of well-done restoration and good

operable components; or a partially restored car with all parts necessary

to complete it and/or valuable NOS parts.

#4 Good - A drive'able vehicle needing no or only minor work to be

functional.

#5 Restorable - Needs complete restoration of body, chassis, and interior.

May or may not be running, but isn't weathered, wrecked, and/or stripped to

the point of being useful only for parts.

[DougN]

Well, looks like the car has sold for the asking price (and quickly too - less than 4 days)! So it would appear that the original question of this thread has been answered :classic:

[geezer]

Might not be over yet. Check out the buyers feedback. he's backed out of other auctions he's won.

[daddz]

Carl and others,

I would add to this discussion that I recall about four years ago missing out on a nice original 1978 Datsun 280Z that was in its original orange paint and had only covered about 28k miles and it sold on ebay for a little north of $9,000. I thought back then that was all the money for a nice original '78 low mileage 280Z. Along with the recent uptick in real estate the old cars have started to follow this trend. Besides stocks and bonds and artwork, what other asset classes are there?

This is starting to remind me of the run up in classic car values that occured in the late 1980's and early 1990's. Only now it has filtered down into the more pedestrian or plebian types of cars. I recently read an article about my humble little old '72 Toyota Celica and the trend line is starting to show 25 to 30 perecnt increases in prices. As enthusiasts we might have to begin to adjust how we are using these old Z cars? There will always be a small segment of owners that will not drive their cars but with dwindling parts availability how long can this continue? Just try to find a nice example of a 1984 or 1985 Mazda RX-7 GSL-SE these days; it is almost impossible to find a stock well rpeserved example for under $5,000 if at all.

It will be interesting to see how this develops but as for me my Z cars are not really nice enough to be compared to the ones featured in this discussion so i plan to keep on driving mine on nice days and generally keep up on the maintenance and correcting previous owners' missteps.

It's a shame because I remember the days when I started buying 280Z's to use as daily drivers in the late '80's and early '90's and it was common in the D.C. area to find a $1,000 daily driver that could be run for a few years and then parted out or sold off. In my case I always ended up spending far too much and parting out was the only viable option to keep the parts supply going for the next purchase. A friend of mine was doing the same thing with MGB's and he went through a succession of them beginning with a '67 B and ending with his current long term project a '77 B. The MGB's stopped being affordable daily drivers in the mid '90's and thankfully a number of aftermarket suppliers have stepped in to fill the void and hopefully this will happen with the Z cars as well.

[geezer]

Another point I have thought about, is concerning registration fees that are collected retroactively. There was another post today covering this in California. The bulk of these cars that are in California will be parted out rather than restored in many cases because of this. This will lead to a surplus of parts. Most of these parts will be well used, but as you know there are a lot of people sitting on a good stash of NOS and other GOOD condition parts in the hopes of restoring the hulk sitting in their yard one day. After California, every other state seems to follow suit eventually. Emission Laws are one good example. Before you realize what has happened, there will be very few complete cars left. I give it 10 years. Then you will see the true value of the collectable Z.