Two weeks and nothing....Argggg

[EScanlon]

No Enrique, that's not my point. I want the shop to take as much time as necessary to do the job right. But I would like them to be honest with me and give me a REALISTIC time estimate. If the job is going to take 12 weeks, tell me that up front. Don't tell me 4 weeks, and then make excuses. Just be honest with me.

Arne;

I wasn't addressing your point. I was addressing Mally002's point about living up to the customer's expectations. You had answered in your own post, that you HAD had a body shop meet a deadline. So there wasn't much to mention there, and I too agree with you. Sadly, having been in those shoes, I can understand the body shop's side. Those guys would like to finish the job, and get paid, just as badly as you want your car. But then we get into the points that I was addressing.

However, in addressing the main issue of your post this time, which is "a REALISTIC time estimate", the problem comes down to the fact that sometimes it is impossible to guess what lies beneath the "surface". Add to that that as a customer you're the one that gets to decide whether the estimate is "realistic" or not...whether you're qualified to judge the length of time required OR NOT!

You've seen what Jim/A7DZ is finishing up, ask him what he thought he was going to be doing, and in what time frame he thought he would be finished. I'll bet that his wildest, furthest, and most pessimistic time estimate doesn't compare to the ACTUAL time he's had to devote to it.

Gary's story started out similarly. A "simple" repair led to close to 2 years worth of work. Mike G's car sat for a number of years due to various factors, but wasn't rushed strictly because he wanted it done right. I went to remove and replace a gas tank simply to eliminate a small gasoline leak so I could get some repair work done on the rear end....and 12 months later, finally got that rear end work done and was finally able to drive my car again.

Your own car (yellow) needed a new dash harness, which should have been hopefully somewhat readily available....and it wasn't. How long did it take YOU to find the correct harness, and why? Did you think it was going to take that long? What else could you have done to shorten that time estimate? If you point out that you could have just bought one from the dealer...you're right. How much was it going to be, and why did you decide to keep looking?

All of the time "estimates" I've mentioned, went out the window in order to do the job CORRECTLY and INEXPENSIVELY. We on this site joke a lot and call it "While I Am There" syndrome, or "You Might As Well", but it's exactly what also happens in a quality driven shop. Where should they draw the line? Strictly on the front fender bump and repaint they estimated on, or would you like to know that the strut support is about to be ripped out of the front end? What about hidden or collateral damage?

So, as far as an "honest" time estimate, would you accept "I don't know until I get into it, and then it might be longer yet?", or would that not be honest? And, let's face it, if the guy told you that it would be 6 months and maybe more....you'd go elsewhere. Eventually someone would lie and tell you it would be ready next week...and the next week, and the next. Is it dishonest, yes. But it's also dishonest the way that you tell a kid it won't hurt to get a shot, or that his pet hamster ran away.

Until they develop X-Ray machines that are convenient and cheap enough to install in a bodyshop to estimate what is actually wrong internally, you're going to find all sorts of surprises when you open up the literal "can of worms" that the damaged auto body can be. Add to that the availability of parts, and suddenly it becomes very difficult to ascertain with any degree of accuracy how long it will take. Top that off with the rock-bottom prices that customers are not happy to pay, and you have all the incentive for timeliness that anyone would want...:stupid:

Modern vehicles and modern bodyshops have a lot of advantages. They often don't have to bump out a fender, cut and replace rusted metal, or even apply bondo several times until the panel is right. Many times now, it's simply un-bolt, paint the new part and bolt it on. And if it's much more than that....sorry, your vehicle is totaled. Add to that the famous MOTOR Estimating Book that lists time estimates, and a body shop is basically gambling that it can shave minutes off what time the book estimates it should take, in order to make a profit on that job. How is the shop going to shave time off that job? By being thorough, or by being super-fast?

Anyone who has ever worked in a manufacturing or production environment with TIMED work knows what happens...people rush, and mistakes get made. Then the piece gets shunted off to the side and addressed later....when it's not being timed.

FWIW

E

[a7dz]

Arne;

You've seen what Jim/A7DZ is finishing up, ask him what he thought he was going to be doing, and in what time frame he thought he would be finished. I'll bet that his wildest, furthest, and most pessimistic time estimate doesn't compare to the ACTUAL time he's had to devote to it.

FWIW

E

First of all from reading other posts I know that there are parts involved and some rust repair to be done before the paint on Randy’s car.

So, what is really happening in the background?

Enrique;

I have no idea how far over my time frame I am. Yes, the time worms were every where.

Let’s just talk about getting the body parts required. I ordered the dog legs for both sides, (later found that the right side could not be used), both rocker panels Received them five days later. The left rocker was good right had a hole in it. Called the supplier they sent me another one received it six days later. Ordered the lower right quarter repair panel, it was back ordered, cancelled order, changed suppliers received panel seven days later bent beyond use. Filed claim with freight carrier settled forty five days later reordered the repair panel.

Started repair with the parts I had and decided there was no cost effective way to use the fenders on the car so, ordered a set from the dealer. They came in ten days later just like clock work. Unboxed the fenders to trial fit them the right one fit like a glove. The left one was damaged in transport. Reordered, came in ten days later in worse shape then the first, sent for another one received it and it looked like it had been in a hail storm. Ten days later received a fender that fit like a glove. Received the repair panel for the right quarter panel about this time so, all is looking good.

Discovered rust in the frame of the hood and called to see if I could get one from the dealer. Jim at the dealership said that he had one in stock. I think my heart stopped this just can’t be. Went down opened up the box and it was perfect.

The easiest parts to get were the ones that I had fabricated at the local sheet metal shop to repair the battery box and firewall. Even some of those were done twice.

Two weeks and nothing is done??? I would trade in a minute.

This is just the parts problems we won’t even talk about the metal that was replaced that could not be seen until you cut the rusty areas open or hit it with the sand blaster.

[mally002]

Two weeks and nothing is done??? I would trade in a minute.

If I were paying a reduced price and being worked in then I would agree with you, however I'm not. We, (the shop manager and I) both sat down and discussed the project, so when he told me 4-6 weeks, I expect 4-6 weeks, and would have thought they would have least started something.

My point about meeting customers expectations is that if you are paying for your classic to be painted, fixed, etc, and I mean paying a premium, then the shop has an obligation to do your job in a resonable time frame, not to be "worked in" with their bread and butter insurance work. Like Arne said, if they say 12 weeks fine, but be done in 12 weeks.

Seven shops I "Interviewed" had no customer service, were rude, dirty, and gave the overall impression of WE DON'T WANT YOUR BUSINESS. How they stay in business is beyond me.

I want the job done right, and I don't mind paying for it, so out of Enrique's three choices of:

FAST-

CORRECT-

INEXPENSIVE-

PICK TWO!

I'll take Correct and Fast.......Fast being in a resonable time.

[EScanlon]

Randy:

As Carl Beck has pointed out before, was the time estimate part of the written contract you wrote up with the shop, or was it "understood"?

I'm not trying to get your Irish up, (and to those of Irish ancestry who would think this is offensive, look up the word "IDIOM"), but from what you posted on another thread, you had various quotes, from $3k to $12k. Obviously, you picked towards the lower end of the range, but not at the bottom. What were your reasons for doing so? Was the timely completion promise one of them, or some other factor?

You mention "Fast being in a reasonable time", but that again is an undefined term, to use algebraic parlance (sorry algebraists!). So in reference to your quotes, you've picked more towards Inexpensive and, presumably, Correct than Fast and Correct. Not saying that more money would have guaranteed a timely completion, but it would have meant MORE to the bodyshop who would have been performing the work.

Unfortunately, $3-$4k for a complete re-paint with metal work and glass removal included...IS inexpensive nowdays. People are paying that much JUST for the re-paint, which is why shops such as MAACO and Scheib are doing well.

But don't just take my opinion on this, there's Jackboxx and Candyblue2+2 who have experience with this. Let's hear from them as to prices and estimates of time.

FWIW

E

[a7dz]

It is pretty hard to get your car done with out the pieces. That is my whole point in post 14. How much time was allowed to get those and then you are at the mercy of others. After being stiffed by people who have you order rare or hard to get parts and then never see them again. Leave the car and I will order the parts.

You are right most shops want nothing to do with this kind of work because of the head aches listed in post 14. They would rather work on new cars bolt parts off and on and be done with it. It took me 56 days to get the left fender that was useable a part I can get in three days or less for a newer car. Ten days was quoted and I was fine with that.

I have been looking for a set of usable lower door hinges for over a year on this series one. Have located three sets but, none of them are in my hands yet.

At the quoted price you posted I would not even look at it. Too much risk of what is underneath these cars. I told Arne 1000 bucks a side to repair / replace the rocker panels in one of these.

I have never got something I did not pay for. I have got over 200 hours in just paint prep alone on this one. I don't know how you do that in 4-6 weeks.

Arne to get the yellow car ready for paint 6 to 8 months. Real work 8-10 weeks.

[moonpup]

I drove by today just to check in and the car hasn't moved from the spot I left it.

These are just a few quotes from some of the replies to mally002's opening post.

"It is pretty hard to get your car done with out the pieces."

"What about hidden or collateral damage?"

"Until they develop X-Ray machines that are convenient and cheap enough to install in a bodyshop to estimate what is actually wrong internally, you're going to find all sorts of surprises when you open up the literal "can of worms" that the damaged auto body can be."

It would be kinda hard for this shop to use these "issues" as an excuse/reason for their lack of work at this point, seeing as how Randys Z hasn't moved from the spot he left it 2 weeks ago.

I think he has every right to be annoyed, especially since his job wasn't supposed to be a "work-in".

[mally002]

Mike,

Thank you!!! Exactly my point. There are no panels to replace, just one small rust hole that I wanted cut out and replaced with metal. I sat down with the shop manager and together we went over my expectations, including the time frame. The shop stated if I wanted it done cheaper they could treat it like a "work in" or I could pay more ($4100) and they would do the work on the time line we talked about.

So yes the time estimate was part of the price, and I have it in writting. Keep in mind that before this estimate was given they went over my entire car for about 45 min....except for the small hole nothing major seemed to be hidden.....could there be? sure.

The lowest estimate I received did include repairs with metal, however more of a re-spray, they didn't want to sand or remove glass.

The $12k was just to run me off, the owner actually said he didn't want the job, but would do it if I wanted to fork over that sum....no thanks.

The rest all fell in between. The ideal shop wanted the job, but told me upfront that they couldn't even think about it till summer, and then it would be 2-4 months......I simply didn't want to wait.

The shop I chose does great work, I looked at a few classic's they had done as well as late model jobs, and I actually thought the price would be higher, so I was very pleased.

I wasn't worked up at all earlier, I'm sorry if that was the impression. I was just simply putting down my thoughts.

Escanlon, your reply actually made me laugh, I thought I was listening to Rush Limbaugh with all those fancy words....remember I'm in the mountains...

Thanks for everyone's opinions, I'll post some pictures in 15-18 days according to my time frame...a joke, a joke,

PS....Moonpup, the centers will look great with the new paint......

[xray]

If I were paying a reduced price and being worked in then I would agree with you, however I'm not. We, (the shop manager and I) both sat down and discussed the project, so when he told me 4-6 weeks, I expect 4-6 weeks, and would have thought they would have least started something.

My point about meeting customers expectations is that if you are paying for your classic to be painted, fixed, etc, and I mean paying a premium, then the shop has an obligation to do your job in a resonable time frame, not to be "worked in" with their bread and butter insurance work. Like Arne said, if they say 12 weeks fine, but be done in 12 weeks.

Seven shops I "Interviewed" had no customer service, were rude, dirty, and gave the overall impression of WE DON'T WANT YOUR BUSINESS. How they stay in business is beyond me.

Not to poke at ya too much, but are you new to the bodyshop game? Ignore all quotes a bodyman tells you about when it'll get done. Just. Ignore. Them. Period. Your project is just that--a project. They know it, you know it. On an undervalued car, no less! Unless they are a boutique, niche market classic restoration shop, you will be worked in between the insurance jobs. If it is a boutique shop, then kiss your $$$ goodbye because they command a major premium over usual bodyshop rates.

Insurance jobs pay the rent, the lights, the paychecks. And, since (IIRC) they bill a set sum to the insurance co. for a particular job, they can maximize profit by maximizing efficiency. With your job, it's strictly by-the-hour and cost of materials. There's no way to be "over-efficient" with the shop's time. Your job will get some attention when they can get to it. $4100 is a low estimate for your job, mainly because it's 35-year old car where there is the great Unknown Quantity of Time to fix the problems that may lurk beneath the surface....

My unsolicited $0.02 is to cool the jets. Show up once in awhile with bagels or doughnuts just to say hey and see how the job's going. If no activity, ask why not and when they expect to get to it. Then show up when they say they'll get to it. With bagels. If no action, consider their sincerity in doing the job, and weigh your options. If they're too busy for your job, they won't do it. And yes, they can afford to be rude because your job doesn't represent the profit level insurance/collision repairs do.

I was quoted $8500 to strip, straighten and paint my car at a shop which caters to the import scene. I think it's an underestimation, more likely to come in around $10-12000. Dropped the car off in August--He said it'll take until December to get it done, now it's looking more like February. And he hasn't even had to do any parts ordering! It's the same everywhere, so please be patient. If you rush them, they'll do a crappy job, charge you full price, then act smug as your paint bubbles and your Bondo cracks....

Like I tell myself: Enjoy the process...enjoy the process..more about the trip than the destination......

Good luck,

Steve

[CANDYBLUE2+2]

WOW. Heres a thread that sounds like a whole lot of good and not so good experiences have been had. I can't find fault in any of the responses I read. So many of your experiences sound exactly like so many of mine. Before I achieved my current position, (The Boss). It wasn't uncommon to see others handle customers just the way you have all mentioned. With that said, I'll not repeat any of the sound advice I've just read. I would like to say that it took me approximatley 4 years to do my own car...Somedays you just don't feel like messing with it...Thats me...If mine would have been a customers project, I may have been able to pull it off in 2 years. Keep in mind, engine work and interior is not commonly done at the body shop. Also, mine was a total resto/mod job!!! If your promised a timeline, then you have every right to expect something to have been done in two weeks. To not even been moved is a total lack of respect to the owner of said vehicle. Thats this guys opinion. My personal method of doing an old car is frowned upon by most and excepted my those who really give a damn and expect high end results. What I do, to keep it profitable for me, and ensure the highest level of quality work for my customer is run a time card on the project...It keeps track of the actual time spent on the vehicle and gives the owner an accurate measurement of the time spent on there vehicle. I'll discount the labor rate a bit because I'm only gonna put time in when I can afford it..(when the insurance work is slow)...yes this is the only way I can accomplish this type of work and not go broke. If I can find a better way to do it and keep everyone happy, I would...so far, I haven't found that yet. This method works for me and my very picky clientel. In closing, if you can find someone in the bodyshop industry who tells the truth, sticks to timelines, does quality work every step of the way, has nothing but your interest in mind at all times, wants to establish themselves as a dedicated pro that truly gives a damn.etc...TELL HIM I'D LIKE TO GIVE HIM A JOB. And if you'd like to qoute me, feel free, John

[jackboxxx]

Enrique mentioned I should post some thoughts here so I will attempt to

express my point of view from a "production" body shop owner.

I "paint" 25-35 cars a week, most of those also include some sort of bodywork

and or some sort of special prep work...most of these get done in a weeks time and are production friendly vehicles so to speak, beyond these cars I also have what I consider to be "project" vehicles of different levels in my shop, currently i have...

2 Z cars

3 Camaros

2 Mustangs

3 antique Fords (model a's etc)

1 Ranchero

1 LowRider Caprice

Whenever one of these type vehicles is brought in knowing what kind attention is needed to make them look good again im automatically telling the customer 1 month (minimum) because I know the hours required will be long

and the return (profit) will be low...But I love classic cars, and enjoy making them look nice again. that being said, they Dont pay the bills...so I have to prioritize my work in the shop to make enough money to pay my employees, the bills , myself etc..

Theres also an issue of "flow of work" going thru the shop...I might write say 50 - 60 estimates in a week, then throw in around 10- 15 verbal estimates,

add 10 trade vehicles, a couple insurance jobs, and you can see how hectic

keeping an exact timeline can be, because not everyone will show up for appointments, (some show up weeks later) trade vehicles (car dealers) need thier vehicles back on thier lots like yesterday, many people just "show up" and drop off cars..out of the blue..insurance jobs start and stop like L.A. freeway traffic, and believe it or not getting people to PICK UP thier cars on time is a considerable

issue as well...so i always seem to have a half dozen finished cars im moving around all day for a week till they finally get picked up...

and somehow thru all that I manage to make 95% of my customers completely happy...

[280z1975]

I feel your pain. I had my Z at the body shop to get painted. It was going to be painted off hours on the weekend by one of the shops painters for some extra cash (the shops estimator is my best friend and the owner is a family friend). I got my Z to the shop on Friday and the owner changed his mind, the Z wasn't in good enough shape to be painted even 'off hours' at his shop. Now my car isn't perfect, but it's also NOT a show car. There are one, maybe two spots, but I put in at least 100 hours of body prep into the car before I painted it! He was just being a perfectionist and I guess he expected my car to be a perfect 10 show car.

Anyways ... he doesn't even do classic cars any more and will only do them for serious money and as side work for his employees when things get slow. He use to do them as part of the business but there wasn't enough profit.

Now as far as your situation. I suspect with all the snow/sleet/ice storms you guys had in the past couple of weeks in Tennessee (at least I assume you have been having them) that this shop is overrun with insurance jobs. These jobs get to the front of the line and always need to get done on time or the shop won't get any more business from the insurance companies. The shop my best friend is at is overrun with jobs at the moment from all the ice storms and bad rain they had down in Texas over the last two weeks.

[jackboxxx]

Now as far as your situation. I suspect with all the snow/sleet/ice storms you guys had in the past couple of weeks in Tennessee (at least I assume you have been having them) that this shop is overrun with insurance jobs. These jobs get to the front of the line and always need to get done on time or the shop won't get any more business from the insurance companies. The shop my best friend is at is overrun with jobs at the moment from all the ice storms and bad rain they had down in Texas over the last two weeks.

Im in California but the same thing HAS to apply to my shop as well..steady accounts (car dealers, Insurance Co's, Fleet accounts) have to take priority over classic cars, or I would lose that Re-occuring business forever...and be out of business.

I will note that I have 1 of my own Z cars in my shop WAITING...(for over 6 months now) to be worked on ....and its sold to a fellow club member soon as I can get it finished....sigh...

Everything else in my shop takes priority over my own cars...