any 240Z concours standards published?

[jayhawk]

I'm getting ready to start the restoration of my '73 240Z. (just as soon as I can sell off the old kitchen cabinets occupying the bay of my garage where I want to put the Z!) I'm tenatively planning to restore it to the condition it was when I drove it new off the lot of the Datsun dealership on one fine April afternoon in 1973. I anticipate a complete teardown and rebuild of the car (its been sitting in my utility yard for the last 15 years and needs a lot of TLC) and I'm thinking maybe I should go ahead and do the kind of rebuild that would let me take it to some concours type judging events. (Maybe - I want to drive this car too, not tow it around just to keep dirt off the fender wells....!)

But I know my ignorance of such events and requirements is nearly total. Heck, I'm not even sure if I'm spelling "concours" correctly... Is there such a thing as some published standards of what is acceptable/unacceptable for a "concours" 240Z?

For example, I'm curious if I replace all the rubber with aftermarket new parts or even some urethane (Black Dragon, MSA, JC Whitney:sick:, etc) would that "cost points"? What about the slotted mags I had the dealer install before I even picked it up? What about using the "round top" carbs I installed in the late '70s instead of the "flat tops" (which I actually still have.)? etc, etc. Understanding what concurs requirements are will help me understand the costs, and whether it is worth the extra effort beyond the complete "like new" effort I'm planning now.

So anyone know if there are such standards for 240Zs, and where I might find them?

I'm also planning to go to the MSA 2007 West Coast Nationals in late April. Will that be a good place to get info on restoration and concours requirements? (I've already ordered the "How to Restore your Datsun Z Car" book and the one for overhauling the Nissan OHC engine.)

Thanks --Bob Russell

(in complete and utter awe of the folks on this forum and their knowledge of the 240Z)

[jayhawk]

Of course, just as soon as I posted this question, I found a 3 year old thread with essentially the same question and a reply that included the Official ZCCA Z-Car Judging Manual as of 2002!

thread: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10972

So thanks to the moderators who have a "similar threads" feature that found what my earlier searches did not!

Thanks --Bob

[TomoHawk]

You should get yourself a copy of the 240Z "F"- project manual. They go over every little part in there. It might help you develop some kind of a checklist, because it's loaded with checklists.

That, and move into the house next door to Kats...

[jayhawk]

Thanks Tomohawk.

But this raises 2 more questions:

1. Where do I find the 240Z "F"-project manual? (a Google search turned up nothing.)

2. Where in Japan does Kats live? I don't know if I'm ready to move there, but I may have to pay a visit to the home country of my favorite car some day.

--Bob

[26th-Z]

There really aren't any concous standards, Bob, depending on what you mean by concours. The ZCCA has judging standards that are very liberal. As I have said in the past, cleanliness is probably the most important criteria. When it comes to nit-picking about parts and applications, there is very little documentation. Lots of discussion, though! The ZCCA gold medallion and gold cup, along with best-of-show at the MSA are probably the three most prestigeous awards to the Z community, but any award is nothing to sneer at. You sound like I did four years ago. My advice would be that you have a good starting book to read and that the more cars you look at the more you will understand what it is going to take. Have fun.

Chris

[26th-Z]

Katsuhiko Endo http://www.geocities.jp/datsunz903/

[TomoHawk]

Ah... the "car on the beach picture" I wonder if anybody has ever actually taken their car onto the beach?

Bob--

You can PM me your email address, and I'll send you a copy of the 240Z restoration manual that I have.

thx

[Carl Beck]

Hi Bob:

I'll give you my take on the subject.

A Concours Quality car would be one that is first a Classic, Collectible or Special Interest vehicle, that has been maintained in or, restored to "as it left the factory" condition. It would be judged by knowledgeable Judges of the Marque as being a #1 Condition example. You might get by with a #2 Condition example as long as a #1 Condition example wasn't sitting next to it.

Judged right down to the level of every nut, bolt and hose clamp. Judging however infers that a person designated as the Judge - will be expected to use his judgment in gray area's. While the ZCCA for example has published Judging Guidelines or Standards for the Stock Class - there are many area's in which the Judges have use their judgment.

Today - to restore a 240-Z to Concours Quality - I would expect to spend at least a couple of years and $50K+. I can tell you that if you keep very sloppy records, account for only the most expensive items and simply forget many of the items you've paid for - you can delude yourself into thinking that you have $35K in the project...

In most Concours Events, and in many cases most car shows - Points would be deducted in the "Stock Class" - if after-market parts of any kind replaced the original factory part. Mag wheels would be considered as a "modification" since they didn't come from the factory. Likewise a carb change.

"As New" and "Like New" might have different meanings to different people. When you restore a car you are attempting to put it in the same condition as it was when new....ie. as new. On the other hand I prefer to use the term "Refresh" to mean that you are putting the car in what most average people would say looks like a new car..ie... like new.

When you refresh a car - you don't worry about every nut, bolt and hose clamp being the correct factory part - the day it left the factory. Rather you put the car in cosmetically beautiful condition as well as mechanically excellent condition - and for the most part you retain the stock appearance and overall form. For the most part, once the car is done - the joy continues as you drive the finished product on the weekends or nice days. The joy continues as you can take the car to a Z Car Club show and not be embarrassed by it's lack of proper condition... You can still refresh a 240-Z for about $15K to $20K depending on how much of the work you can do for yourself.

When you restore a car - the finished product is really a showcase for each individual detail, every original part. You restore a car when you enjoy the process and the process is 90% research and searching for the rare NOS Parts you need, or restoring each individual part to as new condition before placing it back on the "display". When it is complete - most of the joy is over... Now it becomes a permanent "display".. but one that is done. Time to look for the next car to restore... the next collection of unique individual parts to gather... the next knowledge base to build...

Is the additional cost of Restoring a car to Concours condition worth it? Only you can decide that. To a few people it is well worth it - because that is the process in total they enjoy - and it's the process they are spending their money and time on. It is worth it to the general market - no, not in the short run, maybe in the longer run.

good luck with your project..

Carl B.

[TomoHawk]

That's an interesting point, Carl.

There are two medal-winners in my club, and neither are what I'd call rare or collectable models. One is a twin-turbo 300, and the other is a 240Z. Both have low mileage. The 240Z was (totally) restored, but I'm not so sure about all the polished aluminum (that looks more like chrome plating) on the engine. It always gets all the spectators, and always the best of show trophy wherever it goes. It might even be over-restored?

I prefer the stock ( and totally clean) 280Z, as it looks like a 30-year old car should, and doesn't look over-restored.

There's that #1 and #2 thing again. what exactly is a #1 or #2 condition car? I still hear it on the Barrett-Jackson auction shows.

thx

[Zulaytr]

Bob,

Carl, Chris and the other previous posts all make very good points for you to consider. My comments are intended to provide some additional thoughts regarding the actual judging experience for both the ZCCA and a Concours Show. When you enter into either show keep in mind that the judges actual knowledge of what is correct or not will vary greatly. However, the obvious items that stand out will often give them plenty of items to consider. For instance if you use band type radiator hose clamp versus the wire type it would easy for them to take points off given the general knowledge that the band type was not OEM. To your question about aftermarket rubber or urethane those may be much harder to evaluate as long as they have the same look/color as OEM. Generally, judges use the "one knee" rule when looking at the undercarriage. So that aftermarket suspension bushing may be harder to see so points would not be taken off.

Again, if you are planning on going to a non-ZCCA Concours event the judges may not realize you have round top carbs instead of flat top ones. So you might get away with them, But in either case cleanliess, detail and the obvious are key elements. I have seen in some instances I have watched judges go back and forth between other like vehicles in a class to compare what is correct and what is not. If this happens you might get busted on the wrong carbs.

Good luck with your decision on your restoration project. You can get great satisfaction no matter which direction you pursue. One final thought- no matter how you proceed should you show your car your car- Don't let the judging get to you! Showing your restored car should be a fun experience. There have been many posts on this site and others regarding why one car won and the other lost. If the car doesn't win take a look at it and find ways to improve it. After all a true restoration project is never done.

[TomoHawk]

Just to show that some judges "think" they know how to judge, I was at a Z-related car show two summers ago, and I lost points on my car because the "glovebox light didn't work." It DID work! As soon as I turned on the headlights, and opened up the glovebox door, there was the light- ON! The problem there is that once you get judged, that's it- no complaints or corrections from the owners allowed. And I always put the Owner's Manual in the glovebox for a show in case the judges need help themselves. I didn't complain because I was 2nd, and the points wouldn't have helped any.

In addition to all the other stuff, don't you need to be invited to a concours d'elegance car show? I think there are even different types, or levels, of concours shows, with different criteria for entering & judging.

thx