Only $AUD 295,000.00

[Bizza]

ok let me get this right... Mr Matsuo drew what Goertz had in mind?? Yes this is a big issue, to bad i will never know what really happened cause everyone had the story mixed up before i was even born. Most books i've read implies that Goertz was the designed the 240z, but other books tell me that it was a result of a successful project put up by a group of Japanese. But lets face it.. the three cars (240z, 507 & 2000GT) have a lot in common, thus this favour the possibilty that Goertz desinged or had something to do with them all, you decide.

Lets say that what Alan says is true ( i thingk it is), Mr Matsuo's group did design the 240z, but still got their ideas from Goertz.

[HS30-H]

Matsuo was ( and is ) his own man, and he most certainly did NOT draw anything for Goertz.

Its very sad that it seems so difficult to persuade people that Goertz did very little that came out on the final designs for the S30-Z. There are many areas of the design of the S30-series Z that were influenced by the work of Zagato, Pininfarina and even Drogo ( amongst others ) - but do they deserve credit for it - NO! Everybody who designs or styles something will be influenced by what they have seen and learned, and the Japanese culture has for centuries taught the philosophy of copying the teacher until you are good enough to sign your own name on what you make. Goertz has taken advantage of the gap that this left.

Who knew about Matsuo or any other of his team until recently? Probably the most prominent figure on the story of the S30-series up until now 9 especially in the USA ) has been Mr Yutaka Katayama. A man to be admired and a true visionary, but certainly not the average Japanese corporate "man in grey", and ( not necessarily in a bad way ) a tireless self-publicist. Katayama himself credits Matsuo with the design, and counts Matsuo as a great friend. Katayama does not agree that Goertz can claim anything to do with the design. What are we supposed to conclude from that? Well, the story you often hear is something along the lines of "well they would say that, wouldn't they?". But when its the truth, its not necessary for them to have to prove otherwise. Its up to Goertz to PROVE he drew it. Where are his designs and blueprints? As a freelancer, he would have kept his own copies. Where are they, then?

This is one of those Emperor's New Clothes type situations where everybody is just falling into line with what they have been told. Show me a drawing or blueprint for the design of the car from before Goertz stopped working with them ( late 1964? ). How can Goertz prove what he did on the project. If you read what he says on the matter in past interviews, he fudges it virtually every time. He wants credit for the design, but he never actually says that it is his. Has anybody seen him quoted as saying he was fully responsible?

That project that he worked on - later taken to Toyota / Yamaha -was what became the 2000GT, but he does not want anything to do with it. How then can he claim any involvement in the final design process ( from 1964 to 1969 ) of the S30-series Z?

Generally speaking, does anybody outside Japan know who actually designed all the other Japanese cars of the same period? Were the staff at Nissan and Prince all so inept that they could not design anything without outside help? NO - what they needed at the time was some input from somebody who had knowledge of the most up to date design room practices ( especially with regard to full-size clays ). Nissan employed other "Design Houses" ( notably Italian ) to help them with previous and subsequent models ( as did many other manufacturers, lest we forget ) but surely nobody thinks that a bit of freelance consultation and a few visits to the Factory constitutes enough input for Goertz to claim the design???? Don't forget that Goertz stopped working with Nissan some years before the S30-series Z was even on the design board. He was closely involved in the CSP311 Silvia Coupe ( but did not claim credit ) and the design has been credited elsewhere. That car was finished while Goertz was still a freelance consultant to Nissan, but he still did not want anything to do with it. Goertz seems only interested in cars that are judged a success.

Like I've said before and will say again, Goertz should not be claiming this car as his, and the credit should have been given to the team who actually created it.

This whole subject always looks totally biased against the Japanese - even to the point of implying that they were of inferior intelligence or capability. There has always been the "they copied this......" comment ( when in many cases they quite legally licensed designs in order to save time and effort in developing their own products which would end up very similar anyway ). Sometimes in the past I have seen and heard comments that verge on racism, and this is despicable. I will always stand up for the unsung heroes, and I hate to see an impostor exaggerate or inflate his importance when someone else deserves the credit that they are due.

Alan T.

[Alfadog]

I was just wondering - Is Goertz still alive?

I always thought Goertz made some sketches, left to Toyota, then Nissan picked it up again and refined it to production status. Goertz just wanted a bit of credit for what he had started so bitched a bit and the blokes at Nissan used their heads not their hearts and just acknowledged his input.

Whatever the case, I can't wait to see what you have to write about next

[Doehring]

He is still alive and lives near to Hannover. He is a member to the german Z&Zx Club and signed the club watches.

BMW never denied that Graf Goertz designed the BMW 507, a car that here is more worth than a Mercedes 300 SL "Gullwing".

Look at that car and compare it to the lines of a 2000 GT and the 240 Z. Than compare the 240 Z to the Fairlady roadster and the other Datsun cars and designs before the Z. Make your own judgement, however the influences in design work happened.

BTW, the agreement between Nissan and Graf Goertz is published. When I find it I will scan it.

Rolf

[Bizza]

i wonder if he knows how to use the internet.

[Bizza]

I'm not sure about the Gullwing looking like a 240z or a 200gt. It's got some smooth curves but i can't see it happening. The Fairlady roadster..yeah in a way. where you trying to say that gullwing has fetures of a 240z??

[Alfadog]

He's talking about eh Z07...

And personally I dont think it looks terribly much like the datto - considering all of the other cars which were also similar to it suhc as the almight E-type

[Doehring]

Hi all,

I didn't say that Graf Goertz designed the "Gullwing", he designed the '58 BMW 507. The new BMW Z8 is BMW's tribute to Graf Goertz. They honour him whereas Nissan is eagerly looking not to be treated as a copier. In the early 70s the japanese copied nearly everything. In my understanding it would be no shame to agree when I used some help and competence. BTW, Nissan never denied that he did a great job for the Silvia.

[HS30-H]

In the early 70s the japanese copied nearly everything.

Whoa, Rolf!

That's a bit strong. What exactly were they "copying" that was different to everyone else?

This is one of those annoying reputations that get assigned to whole nations and societies ( like "Germans have no sense of humour", "Belgians are boring" and "French people do not like taking baths"........... ). Its rubbish, and its based on a few historical instances and a whole lot of xenophobia.

In the early part of the Twentieth Century, Japan was trying to catch up with the rest of the industrialised world. They had been left behind, but wanted to become a world power - and their governments of the time became more and more under the control of the military. Ultimately, this led to the invasion of Manchuria and their expansion in the Far East - which came to an end in 1945 as we all know.

From 1945, Japan had a VERY hard time to rebuild its society and to put right all the wrongs of the first part of their Twentieth Century. Under the control of the USA for many years, they gradually built their country back up into a booming industrial powerhouse - manufacturing anything and everything. With the rapid growth, many corners needed to be cut to keep up - so many components were simply "licensed" from abroad, allowing them to get on and use the trusted and proved designs and save time on the project. Hence their world-leading turnout of new models in the automotive industry during the Sixties and Seventies.

This "licensing" was a double-edged sword for them; it allowed them to save time and use parts or systems that they knew would work, but they were also accused of "copying". I have heard the S.U. design of carburettors on the S30 Z ( legally licensed by Hitachi, who paid a big royalty to S.U. ) described as "S.U. copies". This is nonsense, and is a good example of the way that people tend to think of the Japanese. The people who say these things usually do not know what the origin of the very things around them was, and if we had a world where designs were not licensed, plagiarised or had any influence on anybody designing something new, then the world would be a very strange place indeed.

The United Kingdom was in a very similar position to Japan after the Second World War ( despite being on the supposedly "winning" side ) and so was Germany. When I think back to the products of the immediate post-war period and on into the Sixties and Seventies, I can think of many instances where designs were plagiarised or influenced by the successful products of other manufacturers or other nations. Its something that we all did - but Japan gets the bad reputation. Thats not fair.

Sure, there are many places in the world where real copying goes on ( in fact, you can call it "Pirating" now ). At the moment Turkey is the biggest source of "fake" automotive replacement parts ( especially for Mercedes Benz parts ) which are certainly NOT licensed or endorsed by MB. This is because Turkey is a country in crisis, and is trying to grow out of it. This is exactly what happened in the Western world and the East in the immediate Post-War era. Everyone was at it.

Alan T.

[Doehring]

I try to attach the Nissan - Goertz agreement. If I don't succeed here I try to put it into my gallery. Hope it works.

Rolf

agreement.txt

[HS30-H]

Hi Rolf,

I've seen that statement published in a few books, and I have to say that its one of the main reasons why Goertz can continue to claim his input on the S30-series Z. Nissan really messed up when they wrote that. They could have nipped the story in the bud right there if they had have had a backbone in their corporate body.

That project that they were working on was codenamed the "A550X", and this was what Yamaha took to Toyota. However, Goertz does not seem to want any credit for it..............

This whole matter blew up when Goertz passed comments on the S130 to a motoring magazine, and that's when Nissan retorted that Goertz had "nothing to do with" the original Z. Goertz threatened to sue, and Nissan chickened out with this "statement"......................

Goertz himself is quoted as saying "They designed the car, but I showed them how". I'll requote his quote; "They designed the car........."

Goertz helped out on the CSP311 Silvia Coupe and the A550X sportscar project. He was NOT THERE when they ramped up design work on the project that became the S30-series Z. You can't even say that he "styled" the car, let alone "design" it.......

Has anybody at Nissan ever said that Goertz "designed" the car? As far as I know, it was only ever Goertz who claimed this - and you certainly will not see him connected to the car by Nissan in any historical matter to do with the car.

Has Goertz ever mentioned Matsuo and his team? ( not as far as I know ). At the very least, Goertz would have done himself a great favour if he had acknowledged the existence of Matsuo and his team when he made those remarks at the launch of the S130 series cars. To simply sit back and soak up the plaudits is morally wrong, and the man must know that.

That statement from Nissan was a fudge, and if I were Matsuo I would have been greatly upset that the company did not defend him more robustly. No wonder he left the company.

Goertz is very litigious, and he might threaten to sue if Nissan ever denies his involvement again. It might be a good time for Nissan to take him on once and for all, and protect the honour of the sword of truth. For some reason, people seem to WANT Goertz to have "designed" the car. I have no idea why, except to imagine that it must be that they want to put a "face" with some other history that they can identify to the legend of a good car...........

Alan T.

[Doehring]

Alan,

this was a nice discussion. It doesn't make much sense to discuss if there aren't opposite ideas. What we know now is that there were at least two great designers, one designed the 240Z and the other one years before (in 1958 already) the BMW 507. May be by that he influenced the Nissan design staff more or less, I don't mind.

For those who never saw a BMW 507, only 251 have been built in Bavaria, I attach a pic.

Rolf