rust question 101

[avemood]

Hi!

I'm the new (since October) steward of a 240z which has three apparently small areas of (hopefully) superficial rust. I will try to attach pictures. I am wondering if there is anything I can do short of major surgery to try to arrest this rust. That is, are there any products out there that i can put on these areas to remove the rust and seal the metal? Should I go at these areas with a small wire wheel (like on a Dremel) first? Any suggestions will be appreciated!

Ave

PS- Also- does anyone make touch-up paint for these old fellas? (Mine is color 920- "safari gold" I think.

[Mckrack]

Hello Avemood,

I certaily don't want to be the bearer of bad news and cause you any undoe upset however if you have that sort of a rust issue then I believe that unless you don't want to investigate further I must tell you that your car probably has other areas of rust going on.

You may want to take the battery out if you haven't already and look at the platform it sits on and then peak down at the frame rails.

Now with the pictures you sent I see that this may not just be superficial rust around the tail gate window gasket but a much deeper issue that no product will help. I do notice that whoever painted the car painted the edge of the rubber gasket as well. First I think you need to take the window out because there is a better then not chance that the rust extends in to the window channel that requires body work and sometimes a new hatch.

As for the rust on the door sills that looks like deep surface rust or worse with some denting going on but it will need attention again at a body shop in my opinion. You may want to look at the dog legs as well and those are behind the rocker panels and in front of the rear wheels.

Now if you had true surface rust and you were going to attempt to fix it yourself then POR 15 can be used or a some of the other liguid products that take the oxygen out of the rust and basically neutralizes it but I think you have a more serious problem brewing.

I apologize if I have been too critical but I would hate to give you the wrong advice and then you go ahead and waste a lot of time and some money.

Then again I may have mantioned things that you already know or assumed.

Please do not take my advice only there are some pretty knowledgable people on the site that I am sure will chime in.

Good luck I hope it all works out for the best. I'm sure it will.

[xray]

I think we can't exactly tell the severity of the hatch rust. Mine looked similar (also bubbled up through a bad paint job), but was very minimal after pulling the hatch glass and weatherstrip. Certainly could be worse, but may not be...Like McKrack said, the presence of rust truly is simply the "tip of the iceberg." Do a search on rust, or visit Carl Beck's site for a quick tutorial on where to look. (hint: anywhere on the car below the beltline!)

As for the sill, I can't see very well how bad that rust is. Looks like surface rust where something wore off the paint/primer and bare metal has now rusted? The fact that your inner sill plate still looks fine tells me that moisture is not the main culprit there (mine were badly rusted from leaking door seals), but trather may be due to the denting and paint damage. Looks almost like something (like the seat belt maybe?) got stuck in the door when it was closed rather abruptly.

Whatever the case, and however you decide to proceed, don't mess with the wirewheel. I recommend buying 3M paint stripping wheels (4" diameter)--they are a much better product for stripping paint and rust. Dremel works well, but only for small spaces. Using a phosporic acid solution like SEM's Rust-Mort or POR-15's Metal Ready will help as any residual rust will be reduced to a blackish iron phosphate. Then coat with an application of which ever rust prevention paint you like, Eastwood, POR-15, etc.

Good luck,

Steve

[Carl Beck]

Hi Avery:

I pretty much agree with what has been said - only want to add a few points...

When water runs down the rear hatch glass - it pools up in the corners at the bottom. IF the rubber seal is actually sealed to the glass at that point - the water sits there and evaporates. IF NOT - then the water runs under the rubber seal and down into the window channel... where it sits until the paint fails and the metal starts to rust. So the first point is that you really need to get a new seal, and have it properly installed on the glass, then in the deck lid.

Those spots in the corners around the rear deck lid glass/rubber - MIGHT still be very small or they might get larger under the seal.... At any rate they will NOT get better, only worse. They will also get worse quickly!

Given the current rarity and associated high price of a solid Series I rear deck lid - I would highly recommend that you order a new rear glass seal, then pull the rear glass out of the deck lid. Take the deck lid to a good body shop and have them strip it - metal patch any small holes or area's that require repair, then repaint it.

You need to look closely at the very bottom "lip" of the deck lid (where it overhangs the rear tail light finisher panels) . Make sure it's not starting to rust and if it is NOW is the time to fix it. It would seem that rust free Series I deck lids are now over $400.00 if you can find one for sale .. so you really do want to address these issues now, before they have much of a chance to worse..

See: <a href=http://zhome.com/Classic/CommonZRust/RustPrevention240Z.htm TARGET=NEW> Hidden Rust Area's Of The 240-Z</a>.

To stop surface rust - you can sand the area to remove most of the surface rust - then treat the area with Ospho (a mild phosphoric acid solution that chemically converts Iron Oxide to Iron Phosphate). Ospho is a brand name - carried by most Automotive Paint Stores/Suppliers. Once the chemical conversion is complete - the area can be primed and painted.

good luck,

Carl B.

Carl Beck

Clearwater, FL USA

http://ZHome.com

[240znz]

That area looked great on my car until I pulled the hatch glass out. The entire bottom lip had gone, so the glass was secured by the sides and top only.

Water had gotten under the paint and rusted out between the inner and outer hatch seam. Nasty but fixed now.

So as above, buy a new hatch seal and rip that glass out and have a good look. Make sure that you run a craft knife between the rubber and stainless strip. This will ensure that the stainless comes out with out a bend in it. I'd take it out first.

[Mckrack]

I agree with what has been said. I think Carl Beck has a very good understanding about this problem and the other responses were very accurate as well.

However there is one thing that I would like to stay with for a moment and that is the general issue of rust on early Datsun 240z cars. If you have symptoms like you have posted in the pictures I have always been told that generally there is stuff going on that you just haven't seen yet.

I would be interested in knowing how your floor pans look, and the rockers and dog legs and frame rails.

Have you looked at those areas. I know Ospho as Mr. Beck said is a good product and because of it consistency gets to places where other products might no necessarily get to.

I guess it depends on what you are going to do with the car and the level of refreshing you want to do on the car.

McKrack

[280z1975]

SNIP .... (hint: anywhere on the car below the beltline!) .... SNIP

I would say anywhere from the roof down

It may not be that bad, but you NEVER know till you get down to the metal and behind the nooks and crannies. :stupid:

[avemood]

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies! I'm looking now for a body shop to help me with this and to go over the car for other rust areas. I don't think the floor pans are bad (i'll take some pictures). The area under the battery looks good to me. As well as the other areas mentioned. But, I am new to old cars and have no experience with what really to look for much less what to do about car stuff- I change the oil myself usually in our cars but other than that, I'm a newbie at all this. I have learned a ton reading this message board but still have no hands-on experience. I hope to get to some of the closer datsun/z club meetings once my weekend work schedule lightens up a little!

Avery