Understanding Car Show rules

[Carl Beck]

It's euro vs japanese, that's all. While a collector 1st Series will go for over $50k someday soon, a Mark IV, a Stag, or even a mini will undoubtably be priced above the sports GT from Japan.

Hi John:

There might be some truth to that today - the real question is if it will hold true for long.

The Buyers of Classic British Iron - are for the most part the generation that proceeded the Baby Boomers. They were 25 to 30 years old when the first big Healey's hit the market and today some of them have the funds to have the dream car of their day. No question the big Healeys have much appeal - beautiful classic lines and a full roadster at that.

The Baby Boomers however out number their previous generation by about 3 to 1 and when the Datsun 240-Z came out they were 25 to 30. Now the Baby Boomers, flush with cash, are fully in the Classic Collector and Special Interest market - most obviously in the Muscle Car market... but within that generational group - it's the Datsun 240-Z that was and is the dream car of their youth.

The fact that the above is true - is one of the, if not the, most important qualities of the Datsun 240-Z. Almost overnight it changed the American Consumers perception of the Quality of Japanese Automobiles. That is the reason that the Datsun 240-Z is considered to be one of the ten most important cars in U.S. Automotive History.

Just the way I see it....

Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

Hi gnosez,

Thank you for remembering me,I think you were wearing a hat?

I have never seen such an organized convention in Japan,we do not have serious competition like ZCCA.

So I was really excited and nervous how much the judges are looking into my car.Off course I new my Z was not able to win the goldmedalion.

Now my understanding is,for 1969 and early 1970 owners,we do not have to buy early parts with a big fighting money on ebay.

Emblems do not have to be metal,plastic is enough.

"D" hubcaps do not have to be early big tab,later "D" hubcaps are enough.

Wheels do not have to be 37 years old,neither have to be 4.5 and do not care about date stamping.

Rubber hoses do not have to be braided,not braided hoses are enough.

Screws and clamps as well,do not buy early just buy clean latest one.

But we want to have fun with small parts,every day we get new findings.I love this community here,I can talk with you all and I can show you what I want to say.

kats

Hi Kats:

It is only a matter of time before Datsun 240-Z's will be very carefully judged based upon having every nut, bolt and screw being "correct" for the model and date of the car. It might be five years, it might be ten, but you are young enough to see and enjoy the time when it has been accomplished.

The very fact that we collect these correct parts, are interested in them, discuss them, will drive the eventual Judging Standards somewhere, at some time in the future - to include them in minute detail.

Like the path taken years ago by previous Classic's - at some point in the future we will have the documentation gathered together in one place, and published in one form - that will define for the future Judges exactly what is "correct" and what therefore isn't. At first this documentation won't be perfect - but it will evolve to ever higher and higher standards over the following years.

This may happen over time within the ZCCA - or it may happen outside the ZCCA. Somewhat the same manor it happened in the Corvette Community or the Thunderbird Community. There is however a growing number of people that would like to focus strictly on defining what a Datsun 240-Z as it left the factory should look like.

When this now small but growing group of people is large enough - I think you'll see the documentation developed that will be necessary to "Certify" 240-Z's as being "as they left the factory".

So hang in there and keep gathering those coveted rare parts....

hope to see you in Daytona this year...

Carl B.

[gnosez]

Carl - perhaps I need to expand my reasoning on this a bit more.

I don't doubt that a 1st Series "collector" 240 will go for more than say $50,000. in the near future but I do doubt that this will become the "average" selling/buying prce for these cars. More likely the $50k mark and beyond will be reached by someone with a specific (and personal) desire to own one. I just don't see it as the kind of investment other euro cars now enjoy. If one was looking long-term (over the horizon in say 10 years), then a 1+ 240Z bought now would easily double over that time period. The question is what will a Healey do in that same time period. I'm using Healey's just because, no other reason. They are much loved by the collector community as a nice example of open top, British sports cars with classic lines. the reliable is fair to middling at best, however.

A few years back a 56 T-Bird went for over $100k at auction (Sinatra's car went for $55,000.) and the only reason it got $100k was because two different trophy wives feel in love with the same car and had the husbands hated each other. The bidding war was a joy to behold as was the look on the sellers face when it topped out over $100k (about $65k more than he thought he'd get).

[kats]

Hello Carl,

This discussion is very fun to read,I feel too.Now I may interrupt but let me say this.

I wish oneday ZCCA could set a new category " Truly stock class". This class requires a car must beautiful and clean,also a car must run and perform as it left from the factory.Need to show up car show day and truck day.Cars are checked its 0-400 time (or HP check on the machine) and have to operate all the electrical system.

What I am trying to say is,I think under the rules of ZCCA "stock class" can not find a real stock car as it left from the factory.The rules only see a car's virtual area.We do not own a model car,we own a car which is driven."Stock display class" is suitable,is not it?

I know I am saying idiot.But very few people can echo with me?

I wish I could see real stock car in the future.

I am very looking forward to seeing you Carl!

kats

[hls30.com]

Kats,

I agree with you, in the stock class of a car show there should be no difference between what it looks like and what it is!

Will

[gnosez]

Other car show events have a class for cars like the ones Kats is describing. They're called un-restored, stock. Later today, the other classification will come to me and I'll post it as well.

[TomoHawk]

I tried one of those unrestored classes once. I don't think the judges stopped to look at my car! Instead they went to the next car which had a new ragtop. I got my goodie bag, and the free lunch, and I talked with a nice Alpha owner ( his car had the same Bosch fuel injection) which covered the $5 entry fee.

thx

[240Z-Fan]

Other car show events have a class for cars like the ones Kats is describing. They're called un-restored, stock. Later today, the other classification will come to me and I'll post it as well.

I can see having my 47k mile Z in this class. Original (and shiny) paint, original interior, uncracked dash, original engine, heck the hood has never been removed...but, being a 73, it lost the flap top carbs back in the early eighties, so now it doesn't look 100% stock and it has a few light dings.

It was very well taken care of but it is not a 300 point car and I intend to drive it ever now and then.

In fact, I have *considered* swapping the engine for a built L28. Don't know if I can bring myself to do this as I like the car being so original.

Anyway, an unrestored stock class sounds great to me. More info on this class would be great!

Al

[Zulaytr]

It sounds like several people are requesting a "Survivor" class for their untouched, unrestored but complete Z. Many shows have a class like that so the public and car owners can appreciate a car that has been through it all and remains intact. Just a thought.

In regards to Kat's comments regarding a "truly stock" class where electrical components are checked and the engine run. Some of the Concours events have that process in place when they judge a car. The do check all of the lights, wiper operation, horn etc and start the engine. They do not check HP or performance vs the baseline for that vehicle. The ZCCA could incorporate the basics of this concept if they so desired. I think this goes back to someone's comments though about checking glove box lights!!

[Mike]

No, it's not required for regular people, but if you have a visual disability, yuo may have that or other requirements. If you were an arm amputee, youd be restricted to an automatic trans, or if a leg amputee, some hand controls.

I don't think they have an ADA approved stock class do they?

-- MIke

[gnosez]

"Original" was the word I was looking for to describe the class of stock vehicles that have not been restored but instead used.

I see no reason not to propose it to the ZCCA and will do so this weekend.

No judging, just a sort of people's choice/judges choice award.

Given we drive vehicles over 30 yrs old, I'd hate to miss out on an award because my glove box light gave up the ghost 5 minutes before it was to be judged. But it does add another layer of detail to the whole process.

At the 2003 ZCCA convention I added a new award, the "Show and Go" award for the best car show Z (total points) and the best AX times in their class. I see that the upcoming convention in Florida has taken that a step further and added in a 1/4 mile element as well. It's called the "ultimate challenge" and I like it.

[TomoHawk]

Either way, the 'shiniest' car, or the one with the most money put into it for restoration ( even in an unrestored class) will probably win. People just don't like dirty or dull cars, paint, or engines. The DD class is the closest thing so far, but even there, you're expected to put a bundle of $$$ into the car, to make everything shine, perfect paint, etc. I don't do that much with my new car!

the big question, IMO, would be how far can you go with cleaning, polishing, and paint in an 'unrestored stock' class? remember there actually are cars out there that have 10,000 original miles on it and look almost new, almost as good as a totally restored car ( there's one in my club.)

thx