Understanding Car Show rules

[gnosez]

Not that I don't have opinions as to shinest car wins in the original class (must have over 100,000 miles and be driven to the show, I wanted to highjack this thread and ask the following question (somewhat related to our earlier posts regarding the value a 1st Series 240Z).

Here goes:

How long do you think owners of sports cars will be able (or allowed) to drive our vehicles in the wake of global climate change issues?

Please do not post your opinions about whether or not climate change exists or not. That is not relevant to the question. So is it 5, 10, 15, 20 yrs out that we can no longer drive our cars.

And perhaps a secondary question should be how long do you think you can keep driving your existing Z without a complete restoration?

[Stickerman]

Please do not post your opinions about whether or not climate change exists or not. That is not relevant to the question. So is it 5, 10, 15, 20 yrs out that we can no longer drive our cars.

It Is relevant. In 1978 they said the world would be out of oil by 1995, so in 1978 the answer based on "popular opinion" would have been until 1995!

That being said, I don't think it will be as much as an issue with the limited amount of driving the "classic cars" do. It is like with the smog issue, sure, my 64 Datsun 1500 has no smog equipment, but it gets driven a few thousand miles a year, compared to my daily driver that has the smog stuff, and gets driven a lot.

[26th-Z]

I do not agree with you, Kats. Judging the stock class does indeed include original everything according to the year of manufacture. I judged with Jim Frederick and Charlie Osborne in Syracuse and Fred Buoni and Todd Wagner in Dallas. The cars we looked at were very very stock. Fabric hoses, original tires, everything. Over the years, I have seen original survivors as well as restored examples. I think the ZCCA does a superb judging and cars awarded their highest honors are very special cars.

The ZCCA recognizes several different types of dealer installed air conditioning systems that were present on a majority of early Z cars and holds to those manufacturers because they were the most common and serve the greatest number of members. 26th had a York piston type compressor.

A friend of mine just flew out to California to service another friend's Healey 2000. Funny you should speak of old Healeys. Don just bought his for $80,000 from a guy who just sold another at auction for $125,000. Nice Healeys are worth more than $60,000 currently.

But so are nice Zs. I don't think you would argue, Carl, and we have seen someone collect them in the last two years, that nice Zs have gone way up in value. Hell, ask Dan what he would sell his Gold Medallion '71 for!

I like the idea of testing how a car works. It would be difficult to test performance, but a car could be started and driven around for a short distance as part of judging. Good idea!

Chris

[EScanlon]

Just a quick note; I think Kats was referring to having ALL the electrical and mechanical components being shown to work and not just installed.

I think, and agree with him, that his idea is that it's ok to "LOOK" good, but that it should WORK as it did originally.

That, I think, is why he's recommending the 400 meter time standard (closest metric equivalent to the 1/4 mile), to compare acceleration and speed to those times when the cars were new.

His comment about "model cars" refers to static display vehicles that are "virtual" vehicles, i.e. not real and not operable. That's why he's recommending the "Stock display class" as opposed to a "Truly stock class".

Just what I understood.

E

[kats]

Hi Chris,

I know the car like an Gold Medallion is perfect and very very special.I can tell the perfectness when I see the car just a little bit.Even I do not see all the components,inside of the door panels,plastic trim, inside dashes,inside engine,under the carpets,I can GUESS the car must have all the parts are clean and new and correct time period,and perfect working order.

I know to win an Gold Medallion is not easy,VERY VERY hard.The car is so wonderful.That is why I feel happiness when I look at the car.At this time I do not have any question about the car win an Gold Medallion without operating check and performance check.

But still we do not actually see the parts are all collect nor are operating and performing as it left from the factory.

That is why I said virtual, "VISIBLE" area is the only one matter right now on the ZCCA rules.If you want to win the Gold Medallion,you have to have correct period/clean OEM parts only VISIBLE area.

Enrique said nicely what I was trying to say,thank you.

How about this,comparing the car's performance to the data of Road and track issued 70's.Dash test,panic stop test,steering and suspention ability.Also fuel ecconomical performance,we know 240Z is a new kind of ecconomy car!

So, we do not need to buy metal emblems/steel correct date stamp wheels/cylinder lock/fuses/harnesses/relays/fuel vapor tank etc.These items are not making any profit for the score!

It does not matter the Gold Medallion car have a different year door/hood/body panel unless they look "same".Only need to be clean.

It does not matter the car have a rear window defogger is inop.

I know,the Gold Medallion cars are all perfect.I do not have to be worried about.Just I am not happy about deduction system.I payed a lot of attention for small things,but they are all worthless.I wish someday ZCCA take consideration for these small things which owners pay attention to.

Thank you,

kats

[Carl Beck]

Hi Chris:

You have seen Kat's car in person haven't you? (or not?).

I was amazed that Kat's car was entered in "Daily Driver" class... Did I understand that correctly? Maybe there is some confusion over the judging rules between Daily Driver and STOCK.

Did you deduct points if the cars had plastic emblems when they originally came with metal? Or did you award extra points for the correct, perfect metal emblems? (as well as all other fine details Kat's is talking about).

Are Daily Drivers allowed OEM Replacement Parts.. even if newer versions.. with no deductions? (would seem to make sense in the Daily Driver Class).

As I originally understood it - a perfect condition Nissan OEM replacement part - even if a later version - would score as well as a perfect original part and indeed score better than a slightly less than perfect but still original part.

Maybe you could fill us in on a little more of the judging criteria it terms of the trade-off's etc.

thanks,

Carl B.

[26th-Z]

Hey Carl,

Kats and I rode down to MSA in his car during the convention in Long Beach. Yes, I have seen his car in person, up close. I don't know what he is talking about. Kats entered the daily driver class so that he wouldn't have to compete in stock and took home a trophy for his smart move. That's what I call "understanding the car show rules"! There is no confusion. Kats knew he would win. There is no such thing as "extra points". In the stock class, a perfect replacement part will score as well as a perfect original part unless the replacement part did not come on that particular model year. For example, a grapefruit alternator can not be replaced on a 1970 model year by the later version without loosing points for the wrong part. In daily driver, correctness of parts to model year is not judged.

[kats]

Chris,

I wanted to enter the stock class in Long Beach.But I did not know what happned,all japanese tourists Z car entered daily driver class,I think total 16 or 17 cars from japan.Only very few japanese people found that mistake,2 or 3 cars are managed to change other classes,modify or nissan modify etc.

I was told from my friend,but it was too late.So I changed my mind.

Chris,do you remember I said "stay on daily driver class is a good idea".This is true for getting a trophy.But more than that,I wanted to enter the stock class even I knew my car could not win in that class.Anyway I drove my Z very often sunny day and rainny day.For me,daily driver class was suitable for me,was not it?

kats

[rtaylor]

This entire thread is related to Official car show judging. And maybe this should be a new thread, or posted on the recent MSA thoughts thread. My only experience at a Z car show is the MSA West Coast Nationals. And based on that experience, it does not matter much whether originality and adherence to strict guidlines are followed due to "the people's choice" awards. As most of you know people can vote for what they feel is the best car in two classes, modified and stock. What I saw win in various stock categories, be it 240, 260 or 280 sometimes won over clearly more original cars that were not as "Shiney" for lack of a better word.

For instance, the car that won the 240Z Stock class was a late Series two, that clearly had series one parts installed, that won over another 240 that appeared to have vintage correct parts. But I don't think most attendee's knew what they were looking at.

Just my thoughts.

[26th-Z]

Therein lies the difference. I tried "people's choice" at Z-Fest twice. One year the ballot box was stuffed by a particular club and the last year, everyone complained because they were not judged in class categories. I know that most ZCCA shows include "people's choice" categories for things like best engine, best paint, etc. With a class judging structure, everyone has a better chance of getting a trophy. The playing field is much more level. And, chances are, the judges at a ZCCA show know what they are looking at. No doubt, judging activities and awards are quite difficult to manage. As I recall, ZCCA class judging can award around 90 trophies.

[Zulaytr]

"And based on that experience, it does not matter much whether originality and adherence to strict guidlines are followed due to "the people's choice" awards."

I have seen many posts on this site and others regarding People's Choice judging. Randy to your point above People's Choice really does not have anything to do with which car is most correct especially in Stock Classes. It all comes down to just a couple of things that influence the results. One is Chris' point regarding who has the most friends or who can stuff the box the most. The other, which is geneally what happens, is the presentation of the car. It may come down to which color the crowd likes, which car has the best shine. It is the "crowd favorite"! I have shown my car in various events and I have sometimes never gotten a look with the steel wheels and hubcaps (which would most correct for stock) but with the period correct polished slotted wheels it may get all kinds of attention. So why would just a change of wheels have any impact? The engine compartment did not change or the interior.

I have also seen similiar occurances happen in non ZCCA events where a judge picks a car in the class that is obviously not the best.

If you are going to show your car you have to be prepared for all kinds of surprises and disappointments.

Just one person's opinion.

[turbo 260]

hey guys,

I have been following this thread for a while now, and thoght I would chime in. My name is Jim Peters, and as Chris said, I'm in charge of the car show. Now before everyone starts in on me, let me explain what it is that I am doing. I'm in charge of organizing the event, setting up the show, helping with judging, and setting up the people's choice. I can't change anything in the ZCCA rules, they are set and probably won't change any before this convention. I think that there has been a lot of great ideas in this thread that need to be proposed to the ZCCA. I think that it would be great for a few of the members of this forum to would get together and make a proposal for consideration at the ZCCA meetings during this years convention.

What I can change is the people's choice. Well not so much change, but there is really no guidelines set by ZCCA yet. We are collecting information when you register as to the class you would be in if judged, but we are doing that to get an idea of the cars entered. Any suggestions that anyone here has would be greatly appreciated! I've helped Chris on the last 3 local Z Fests and realize you can't please eveyone, but I would like to get eveyone's imput before the show.

Jim