Understanding Car Show rules

[gnosez]

Tomohawk - a good question and observation (re: judges off the street) but it's late so I'll reply tomorrow. There's answers to both...

[Marty Rogan]

Marty - the console is judged as part of the: console/shifter/parking brake group and if all you had was that one hole you might lose a point or two assuming everything else is in excellant shape. OEM beats aftermarket so stay with the original console and get a piece of black plastic rod and fill that hole.

The throttle was a factory item on 1st Series. The Adco rubber mats are a good question. I'll ask during my call to Todd on Tuesday and will post his reply.

The paint job is the killer, as you know and until that is resolved you will not win a gold medal in "stock" class. You could get 2nd or 3rd in your class if the rest of your Z is in excellant condition. It's up to you as to what's important in all this.

Tomohawk wanted to know if there were detailing secrets for Zs and I told him no. Paying attention to the details is what detailing is all about. I find that the more people go over their cars the more things they find out about the car (like finding out they have a loose bolt or damaged part) and in turn about themselves. Each and every Z that is entered in a car show has a story to tell. That's what I get out of going to them.

Thanks for the input gnosez.

Do you think the car might be better suited for another class? I was thinking the daily driver class might make sense. I believe paint color isn't an issue in that class. If most things are pretty correct, and very clean, it might do well. I remember KATS car winning in the daily driver class. His and my car are fairly similar. Both are early 70 models, blue on blue, but not the correct 903 blue. Although mine is nice and pretty correct, I know mine would not come close to the level of detail he put into his car. I am just not sure what judges are looking for in the various classes. The daily driver class does not judge the engine compartment and that is one of the high points for my car.

I would think going in the Nissan Modified class would not make sense, since it isn't very modified. I would think tastefull done, highly modified cars would take way more points than a slightly modified car.

Thanks for the opinions. This is a good discussion, thanks for starting it Will.

Marty

[gnosez]

Marty - sign your Z up in Street Modified and take your chances. Spend as much time and money as you think is right for you. After a ZCCA event, they should mail to you a copy of your judging sheet so you know what areas will need to be fixed. You can also ask some people in a local Z club to judge your car. We did that for a guy looking to see if he wanted to go all and prepare his Z to become a "gold" medal vehicle. Three different people did all three (interior, exterior, and engine bay) areas and then the 3 sheets were incorporated into one review sheet for him to go over and use as a guide.

[Carl Beck]

Hi Guys:

It sounds like the ZCCA needs to add another "Class" named "Personal Taste".

This would be for cars that the owner has injected his personal taste into - without regard for any of the usual Competitive Show Car classes, class rules or judging standards.

The Judgment in the Personal Taste Class - would then be based strictly on which car the Judges simply liked the best - who has done their thing - with the best Personal Taste.

Or simply "display" the car in the Non-judged Class... At least at NY there were as many nice Z's outside as there were inside for the Judged Classes.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[gnosez]

Of course, People's Choice!! Trophies and awards subject to the whim of the attendees, so go with either bling, massive HP, or just plain classy.

[hls30.com]

Tomohawk,

I have reread your posts, and I think the required equipment would all be covered easily in any of the Modified classes with out loosing any points(as long as your installs are excellent).

You have a custom console and shifter, sunvisors, as well as a camera mount and light on your rearview mirror-your car fits in the modified categories.

The stock class should have no allowances for updating to current code or driver requirement as the cars are supposed to be time capsules.

There shold be a difference between a driver and a truely stock car. Most gold medallion class winners are hardly driven-None have been daily transportation in the immediate time frame prior to being judged in a show. If you don't want your car in the daily driver class, give it a good cleaning and enter it in one of the modified classes!

Will

[moonpup]

I'm still waiting for an answer as to why in the stock class, one dealer installed item (AC) has no points deducted, while all others do? (or do they?)

[TomoHawk]

Actually Will,

According to the juging rules, my car fits better in the DD class, because it allows most customizations you would want, within limits (because it's supposed to be a street car.) Not all mods will get you penalties.

thx

[hls30.com]

Actually Will,

According to the juging rules, my car fits better in the DD class, because it allows most customizations you would want, within limits (because it's supposed to be a street car.) Not all mods will get you penalties.

thx

Tomohawk,

I got the impression (evidently incorrectly), from your posts that you wanted it to be judged in one of the other classes.

Obviously I misunderstood...

Will

[Carl Beck]

I'm still waiting for an answer as to why in the stock class, one dealer installed item (AC) has no points deducted, while all others do? (or do they?)

Hi Moonpup:

It might be hypocritical if that single exception was made because someone present when the rules were written - has a car with that exception.

On the other hand it would seem to be just fuzzy thinking, or rationalized for one reason or another. In any event it certainly does not display good logic nor does it seem to support any clearly defined objective.

Interesting discussion. The "issues" or "problems" with the ZCCA Show and Judging Rules are really typical of most Marquees - at this point in their life cycles.

At the present time DATSUN 240-Z's in America are still owned mostly by Enthusiasts who are starting to realize that their Sports/GT really is a Classic, really is gaining in value yearly and really is becoming a rare sight on the roads. These same people are very proud of their cars and are interested in maintaining and improving them - then comparing them to other Enthusiasts Z's.

IMHO the ZCCA Judging Rules reflect to a great extent - the cars and people that show up at the ZCCA Annual Convention. They also seem to support the ZCCA's perspective that the Car Show at the Convention is pretty much that - a car show. A place for everyone to gather for a few hours one day to see all the cars. Then pick the best from among them - in a few hours that day - so that the awards can be announced that night or the next. All this is perfectly fine - as long as everyone involved understands that and agrees to that - right from the beginning.

I may be talking like an old man - but I can easily remember when the Classic Thunderbird Club went through this same period, with this same situation. Situation - What Situation?

The situation is the transition of the Datsun 240-Z from "Enthusiasts Z" to "Collector Z". I see the situation reflected here and many other places. The Enthusiasts resent "check book cars" (because most of us don't have the check book balance needed). The Enthusiast actually resent or bad mouth "Trailer Queens" (because they don't want one - or because they can't afford one). The Enthusiasts want a "Stock" class that makes exceptions for all manor of items they don't consider to be of importance .. or to simply not judge them to begin with. "Stock" to them means a basically stock enthusiast's car. {Look at the dialog in this and many other threads}.

On the other end of the "transition" however - are the "Collectors".... at present they are just getting started - but in the end they will hold most of the remaining 240-Z's in America (and for that manor around the world). At some point in the future 98% of the DATSUN 240-Z's in America will be either Condition #1 or #2 examples and there might be a few holdouts that keep their #4, #5 and even #6 cars until they die. Then their heirs will sell them.

Anyone seen any #3, #4, or #5 Condition:

-Early 50's MG TD's or TF's for sale lately?

-53, 54, 55, 56, 56 or 57 Corvettes for sale lately?

-55, 56, 57 300SL's for sale lately?

-55, 56, 57 Thunderbirds for sale lately?

-61 Pontiac Catalina or Bonnivelle's or 64 Pontiac GTO's For Sale lately?

-63-67 Corvettes ?

At some point in time all the above and many, many others were all drivers, enthusiast's cars... Now they are all judged to very very demanding and strict standards. "Stock" really means "as it left the factory". At National Level Events you won't hear anyone bitching about check book cars nor trailer queens. No one will insist that these car were meant to be driven... Almost without exception the keeper of these Classics will insist that they be preserved, protected and maintained in perfect condition.

Over time - and it takes time - lots of time - the ZCCA will have to evolve it's judging rules/standards and perhaps evolve it's Car Show to reflect the types of cars and people that show up then.... fewer and fewer enthusiasts with daily driver 240-Z's or #3 and #4 Condition cars - to more and more Collectors with #1 and #2 condition 240-Z's. At that point they'll have to get down to the nity-grity, every nut, bolt and screw will have to perfect and "as it left the factory" in order to determine a class winner.

During that prolonged transition period - not too many of us are going to be perfectly happy nor satisfied...

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Arne]

The situation is the transition of the Datsun 240-Z from "Enthusiasts Z" to "Collector Z".

Well put, Carl. A very good analysis of what we seem to be hearing. And I'll go on record right here to say that I personally am firmly in the "enthusiast" camp. I don't really resent the "collector" crowd, because it is their passion that is driving the market, and their needs that will ensure that the parts I need to maintain and drive my car are still available. I will say that I don't really understand the "collector" group entirely - I can't imagine owning a fine, restored sports car and not wanting to take it for a weekend cruise.

So yeah, I'm still an enthusiast, even though I will go far out of my way to keep my red 240Z either stock, or at least within easy reach of stock. I just like my car that way, and enjoy driving it pretty much as it was built.

[gnosez]

There are already places where "collector" 240Zs can go to exhibit their cars and a ZCCA convention or sponosred event isn't one of them.

There was a lot of talk back a few years ago about the time spend judging cars and the training and professionalism of the judges. Some thought we should hire professional judges and cull out the best of the best in each class first and do a complete inspection/judging of just those vehicles. But as Carl has observed, the ZCCA is not at this point in it's evolution as an organization, and we may never be.

Individuals watching the judging at Amelia or Peeble can be fooled into thinking that 1) they spent hours and hours going over each car and checking all manner of paperwork or 2) they spend less than 10 minutes before deciding. These shows are nothing more than beauty contests with no open hood inspections. Custom hot-rod shows were cars are inspected for days at a time (and on a lift) by a group of experienced professionals are the ultimate in judged events.

In has only been in the last 5-7 years IMHO that stock 240Zs have been "invited" to participate in either classic or collector shows. Owners like Carl, Charlie Osborne, Dan Banks and others now have vehicles worthy of the title "classic, collector car". These are no longer trailer queens but a (semi) rolling display of Japanese automaking circa 1969-70. As time progresses other models will obtain this status as well and we will see "classic 260 and 280s in the next 5-10 yrs. These however will never reach the same level as the Series 1 Zs.