Understanding Car Show rules

[TomoHawk]

Tomohawk,

I got the impression (evidently incorrectly), from your posts that you wanted it to be judged in one of the other classes.

Obviously I misunderstood...

No worries. I'm trying to keep it as stock as possible, but with my finances, I will have to settle for DD class. Occasionally, I might try another class if there don't seem to be many cars entered.

[hls30.com]

John,

I have attended Amelia Island show several times, and you are spot on, I remember my first time, getting up the morning of the judging at 0:dark thirty to get pictures with no one around and seeing some of the prep work the owners/display companies did.

A paticular 60s Ferrari was being prepped and the started it on the seventh try, sounded great when it finally running and better as it warmed up, but the volumes of blue smoke it filled the field with were absolutely amazing!

I checked over the car pretty well, and found sanding marks, overspray covered by a quick shot of black shoe polish, and a great number of similar shortcuts-the car judged much higher than it deserved, and my immediate thought was "these judges must be paid commission on the cars that change hands here." I watched the car being judged, I spent more time looking over it than they did, and in my 10 minutes I found details lacking that My first attempt at a paint job had. Much akin to a review of a product by a magazine that has the parts manufacturere as its largest yearly advertiser-too much connective tissue to allow an objective review-they saw a RED Ferrari, and I saw a red 30 footer.

Will

[TomoHawk]

Reminder: Buy a pint of black shoe polish... :paranoid:

[Zulaytr]

gnose wrote "There are already places where "collector" 240Zs can go to exhibit their cars and a ZCCA convention or sponosred event isn't one of them. "

If not the ZCCA show then where should they be displayed? If it is felt that a truly restored 240Z should be in a Concours event other than the ZCCA Convention then you might want to review just how many Concours events have a class the Z can enter. Does Amelia Island, Pebble Beach, Los Angeles etc have a class they can enter? In just the past couple of years the list that either have a specific class or a generic one is starting to grow. Maybe not as fast as we would like but some progress is being made. I truly feel the ZCCA needs to be the premier show. After all Corvettes, Mustangs, Jags etc do have national shows that concours judging is the key event. So why not the ZCCA?

I agree with many who feel the 240Z is finally starting to be recognized in both value and for it contribution to automotive history. Carl made a good point about MG's. I once dated a girl who had a 1954 TD that was her daily driver. I wonder what ever happened to it? I would guess it has had the full restoration treatment it desired.

I have also attended many shows of all types that have a wide spectrum of judging criteria, vehicle knowledge and appreciation for makes of vehicles. Some turn their noses up to a Japanese car while others welcome them with open arms. As an owner of a car being shown, we would all like to think the judge or judges have full knowledge of your car make and model but reality is they do not. That holds true for the ZCCA. The reason is you have to rely on the people to volunteer to judge and help out. So they do not always know everything about each model. Some organizations, the NCRS (National Corvette Restorers Society) for one, do have a judging manual that is very indepth regarding what is or is not correct. The manual takes away alot of the guess work and alot of the subjectivity. Would the ZCCA benefit from something like that sure! If someone wanted to know what points are deducted, what specific areas that are being judged would be very helpful. Judges are creatures of habit. Meaning some focus on certain areas that they have either learned about or are pet peeves over time as their focal point. In this tread some of those areas have been identified. But again someone has to volunteer to take on the huge task of doing the research and assembling the manuals.

So in the mean time I encourage all of the daily drivers, concours quality and resto-mod Z's sign up for the shows in your area as well as the ZCCA events. The more exposure the Z gets the better chance that a 260Z, 280Z, 300ZX at some point in time will also rise in value and collectibility.

As Nissan once advertised- 'Enjoy the ride"!

[Carl Beck]

There are already places where "collector" 240Zs can go to exhibit their cars and a ZCCA convention or sponosred event isn't one of them. ....snipped...

Hi John:

I was under the impression that the "Collector" Cars could only be "Exhibited" at the ZCCA Conventions once they attained the Gold Medallion Award. After that they would be exhibited/displayed, but no longer allowed to compete in Judged Events at the ZCCA Annual Convention. (yes/no?)

Nonetheless, I agree that part of the over-all progression of the Datsun 240-Z's will be their growing entry into the Concours Events. Collectors that now own Classics of several different Marquees are adding the Datsun 240-Z to their Collections. In private collections around the country Datsun 240-Z's now sit proudly beside Classic Ferrari's, Porsche's, Jaguars, Corvettes etc. That wasn't so much the case 10 short years ago.

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the evolution followed by the Enthusiasts and Collectors of a single Marque; more so than that of the over-all Classic Car environment.

More along the lines of say the mid-year Corvettes - ie. their Bloomington Gold Certification or NCRS Flight Award for correctly restored Corvettes. In that context I put a group at each end of a more narrowly defined continuum Enthusiasts at one end and the Ultimate Collectors at the other - just to abstract the discussion from the hundreds of variables and exceptions of the real world.

While I certainly enjoy being in the company of Dan and Charlie - I don't own a "Concours Quality 240-Z" in the sense of the term "as it left the factory". I do own and am restoring an historic competition car - but it is hardly "as it left the factory" and will be pretty much as raced - original Baja Dents left in the floors - lots of holes drilled for various reasons left in place etc. I hope it will be as cleanly prepared as BRE originally did it - but it will be restored more as a typical competition car - not really done to show perfection. (I've already got a couple of scratches in it..;-)

Like several others I could name here - I have accumulated most of the parts needed to restore a 240-Z to #1 Stock Condition, I have a car that is a good basis... but so far I haven't started on that project. I do have a Blue 72 240-Z that I bought new at the end of 71 - I've refreshed it. I also have a White 72 that I bought to drive - I've refreshed it as well. I'd rate both a solid #3 condition Z's.

Actually today there are of course more than just Enthusiasts or Collectors.... most of us are blends of the two extremes and it will stay that way for a while. I can think of several guys here, that would fall into three or four more narrowly defined groups.

Enthusiasts:

a) Racers/Performance Oriented (Historic, Drag, Road, Auto-crossing)

Restorers - derive pleasure from the process of refreshing or restoring these cars

c) Drivers - Grand Touring, Daily Driving, Weekend Drivers - own and drive for pleasure

d) Original Owners - the 240-Z is a member of the family and most of us will die owning ours

e) The enthusiasts that owns one "Collector Quality 240-Z"

Collectors:

1) Actually Collect #1 and/or #2 Condition Cars - "the collection" is the goal.

2) An Enthusiast that happens to also own a #1 or #2 condition car - and shows it.

3) Collectors of Rare Parts that enjoy owning a collection of them

4) Collectors of Marque Memorabilia and Historic Items associated with the Marque

4). .....

As I said - interesting discussion at any rate...

FWIW,

Carl B.

[hls30.com]

Carl,

I like your groupings,

I fall into B working on C and 3 and 4, all part of the process of working toward E!

The synergy between 3, B, and C is what lead me to the posting of this thread.

[gnosez]

Wrote up reply last night and had laptop crash. I have limited access here at Ground Zero so please hold on and I'll reply in the next 24-48 hrs.

Carl - I like your grouping as well and have an answer re: where to show your collector Z. More later.

[gnosez]

Let me rephrase that statement. If you have a serious need to have your “collector” 1st Series 240Z validated then you first need to have it judged at a ZCCA event (the best being the national annual convention), before taking it to an accredited classic car show.

You can bypass this approach but a gold medal award from the ZCCA gives you two things, 1) you know you car is pretty special, and 2) you now have the (street?) creds to show others.

That said, where say, in the next 10 years will the 1st Series be placed in value? I’m not talking about historic race cars, JDM, or factory works cars, I talking US domestic import 1969-70 240s. For comparison purposes let’s use a car that lost it’s place here in the US once the 240 hit the roads in large enough numbers. That would be the Austin Healey MK IV 3000. The 240 crushed it on the race track and in the day in and day out daily driver competition with its’ reliability factor. A 1+ 1972 Healey now sells in the $40-60k range. In ten years in may double. In ten years, no matter how many 240s have been modified, crushed, crashed, or rusted out, their value won’t be half of what a Healey will sell for then.

I’m not knocking the 1st Series I’m just trying to put some perspective into all this.

[AZ-240z]

Let me rephrase that statement. If you have a serious need to have your “collector” 1st Series 240Z validated then you first need to have it judged at a ZCCA event (the best being the national annual convention), before taking it to an accredited classic car show.

You can bypass this approach but a gold medal award from the ZCCA gives you two things, 1) you know you car is pretty special, and 2) you now have the (street?) creds to show others.

That said, where say, in the next 10 years will the 1st Series be placed in value? I’m not talking about historic race cars, JDM, or factory works cars, I talking US domestic import 1969-70 240s. For comparison purposes let’s use a car that lost it’s place here in the US once the 240 hit the roads in large enough numbers. That would be the Austin Healey MK IV 3000. The 240 crushed it on the race track and in the day in and day out daily driver competition with its’ reliability factor. A 1+ 1972 Healey now sells in the $40-60k range. In ten years in may double. In ten years, no matter how many 240s have been modified, crushed, crashed, or rusted out, their value won’t be half of what a Healey will sell for then.

I’m not knocking the 1st Series I’m just trying to put some perspective into all this.

John,

I'm trying to follow your logic. Is that left unsaid above the fact that the Z will never attain the value of the Austin Healey MK IV 3000 because the number of 1+ 240Zs will always be much greater than that of the Healey?

Or, does the Datsun loose appeal due to being modified, crushed, crashed, or rusted out in far greater numbers than the Healey? Or, is the value and collectability based on it European origins?

I am not disagreeing with your conclusion on relative values, (my brother had a Healey 100 which was incredibly fun), but I guess that I missed the premise on which you have based your value comparison.

I am really enjoying this discussion.

Dan

[gnosez]

It's euro vs japanese, that's all. While a collector 1st Series will go for over $50k someday soon, a Mark IV, a Stag, or even a mini will undoubtably be priced above the sports GT from Japan.

As to rusted, crushed, crashed, etc. I was trying to imply that no matter how few 240s end up un-modified and in 1+ condition the resale value will still be much less than a vehicle from Europe from the same era. Which, on the plus side makes these cars affordable to those of us who have come to love the little buggers.

[kats]

Hi gnosez,

Thank you for remembering me,I think you were wearing a hat?

I have never seen such an organized convention in Japan,we do not have serious competition like ZCCA.

So I was really excited and nervous how much the judges are looking into my car.Off course I new my Z was not able to win the goldmedalion.

Now my understanding is,for 1969 and early 1970 owners,we do not have to buy early parts with a big fighting money on ebay.

Emblems do not have to be metal,plastic is enough.

"D" hubcaps do not have to be early big tab,later "D" hubcaps are enough.

Wheels do not have to be 37 years old,neither have to be 4.5 and do not care about date stamping.

Rubber hoses do not have to be braided,not braided hoses are enough.

Screws and clamps as well,do not buy early just buy clean latest one.

But we want to have fun with small parts,every day we get new findings.I love this community here,I can talk with you all and I can show you what I want to say.

kats

[Carl Beck]

Hi John (everyone):

This has turned into a long magazine article - so read it when you have the time.

In advertising/marketing there is a concept referred to as "Product Ladders". Product Ladders are a conceptual way of looking at how consumers rank competing products in over-all terms. One of the most famous examples of how this was applied, took place in the Automobile Rental industry. At the time Hertz was the leading automobile rental company in the U.S. and it was about seven times bigger than it's nearest competitor. Hertz used the advertising slogan of "We're #1" which was followed by the fact that Hertz was there for you at all major airports in the country - so you could count on them to have a car almost anywhere you needed one, when you needed it. American's love Champions/Winners.... and hate sore losers.

A rather bright guy took on the Avis account for a medium size advertising agency and at that point in time Avis was about the sixth largest automobile rental agency in the U.S. He came up with the advertising slogan "Avis, we're #2 - so we try harder"... which after the first few years was shortened to "We Try Harder".

That slogan defined a Product Ladder in the consumers minds for the Automobile Rental Industry for the first time, even though thousands of other consumer products had done the same over the years, and even though most didn't realize it some did.

What "Product Ladder" do you think people paying $40K to $60K for a big Healey have in their minds? Perhaps it's a "Classic British Sports Car" Product Ladder. Jag. D-Type on the top rung all the way down to a Triumph Spitefire at the bottom (no offense to Spitfire owners - I admit I know nothing about that product ladder -it's just an example to put the image in your mind).

In the above sense - it makes sense that if one can not afford a D or E-Type... lovers of Classic British Sports Cars move down the rungs until they find a rung on the ladder that they can afford. On the other hand, the really big money people run out of D-E's to buy at the top and they start adding the cars to their Collections from the lower rungs - a big Healey perhaps - to their Collections.

Today that rung seems to be at the $40K-$60K level - approaching the top rung for small money people - and the question to be answered over the next ten years is - "Will the big money people be willing to come down the Ladder to start buying them up and in so doing - start bidding against one another for them". We'll all be watching to see if that happens.

One thing that does happen is this - as the prices paid for the Top Rungs go up - the entire Product Ladder moves up and usually it's one rung at a time. The main reason a big Healey is today commanding $40K-$60K is because an E-Type is now what??? $85K to $120K and there are still some nice #3 cars that can be bought every once in a while.

In the past couple of years I've personally seen several #2 Datsun 240-Z's change hands in the $30K to $35K range, and one #1 280Z be sold for $40K. I have more than a couple of serious Collectors constantly bugging me to find them #1 or #2 Datsun 240-Z's - and there is no doubt in my mind that any of them will gladly pay $40K to $50K for a #1 Condition car - the problem is, I haven't found a single #1 Condition 240-Z that any owner will part with, and very few #2 Condition cars.

So what Product Ladder do these Collectors have in their minds, what class of Collectors are they (small money or big money) - and on what rung do they place the Datsun 240-Z. ????

My best guess, based on watching this market pretty closely, having dabbled in Classic, Collectible and Special Interest cars a bit myself and now dealing with a growing number of these Collectors would be:

a) The Product Ladder is "The Worlds Best Sports/GT's and/or Sports Cars".

The rung is not quite the bottom one but close - because there are very few inexpensive cars on that Product Ladder to begin with.

c) At present it is both small money and big money Collectors in the market.

Small money and big money Collectors overlap today in the $75K to $125K price range. What is amazing to me is that Datsun 240-Z's are now sitting side by side in Collections with half million dollar Ferrari's and Porsches as well as $100K BMW's and M/B's.

The Chevy Corvair will always be at the bottom rungs of the "Classic, Collectible and Special Interest Chevy" Product Ladder - even though they are unique, have great competition history and industry leading technology. Nonetheless I doubt they will ever make the leap to other Product Ladders like the "Worlds Best Sports/GT's or Sports Cars".

Can the Big Healey's ever make the leap to other Product Ladders where their value will increase at a much higher rate of appreciation - we'll have to wait to see. Maybe it's happening now - maybe not. Could be like the Corvair's the big Healey's well stay strictly on the "Classic British Sports Car" Ladder..

The Datsun 240-Z has already made the move from the "Japanese Sports Cars" Product Ladder and their present market values encourage their restoration even at twice the cost of their current market values.

Personally, I'd rather have two #2 Condition Datsun 240-Z's today at $30K each than one Big Healey at $60K. I believe it would be a far safer bet - and worse case you'd actually have a car you could drive anytime anywhere.

Will a Datsun 240-Z ever bring higher values than the big Healey's?... I could easily see that happening because the Z seems to have far broader appeal on several different Product Ladders. You see this reflected in polls like AUTOMOBILE Magazine's rankings of the best Sports/GT's of the Decade - were for the decade of the 70's the Datsun 240-Z ranked second only to the Ferrari 365-GTB Daytona. The idea that a group of automotive experts and/or top enthusiasts even thought of the Datsun 240-Z in the same light as the decades super exotics should tell you something.

Time will tell....

FWIW,

Carl B.