BRE 510 on Ebay ?

[Carl Beck]

Hi Guys:

First let me say that I believe any DATSUN 510 with a documented 7K original miles and a rust free body is worth at least the current bid and perhaps far more... I haven't seen a 510 on the streets here in Florida for at least the last ten years... and I know there are tens of thousands of people that love the 510's. I believe that Mr. Brock even owns a 510 today.(being highly mod'ed out).

Reviewing what Mr. Kohs has written - When Mr. Kohs refers to "we" - I get the distinct impression that at the time and today - he feels he was part of the over-all NISSAN/ DATSUN BRE team. It would seem that "The Marketing Corporation of America" worked for NISSAN/DATSUN USA and with the BRE Team as well as with the DATSUN Competition Dept.

Ron reports that Gary did "some work promoting BRE" - - My understanding is that Gary Kohs (Marketing Corporation of America) acquired the SIMONIZ sponsorship for BRE, got Revell to do a promotional model of the BRE 510 and associated advertising etc. plus a lot more {as Gary states in his E-Bay write-up}. So his involvement was more on the major side of things, than a minor bit player....(money is a very important part of racing and Marketing is the primary driver for sponsorships).

He also stayed with NISSAN/DATSUN after BRE folded... and kept the SIMONIZE sponsorship for Jim Conner's successful campaign of the Datsun Pick-up's, prepared by Bill Stroppe, at the Baja. (June 74 Issue of the DATSUN NEWS). Given Mr. Brocks conflicts with the people at Datsun Competition I can understand his displeasure with Mr. Kohs.

It will be interesting to see if Mr. Kohs comes up with invoices for work done on the car at BRE. He said they installed a 5spd, race suspension, mild engine mod.'s and American Mags..etc.

The bottom line is - the seller has more than sufficient documentation to prove his, and this 510's ,"association" (good or bad) with both Nissan/DATSUN USA and BRE... Failed project or not... it's part of the history associated with the over-all story. So I would think that any serious BRE collector would place some premium, over and above the value of most other regular production 510's - on this one.

Just my perspective... but a lot of the value of any collector car is found in it's documented history and the interesting stories surrounding them.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[26th-Z]

I'm really glad to read the information you posted, Ron and Carl. Most of my questions were answered and I like the various points of view. There is no doubt that this car has potential and the documentation of the claims made by the seller as well as those made by Brock, Morton, et. al. contribute to what could be an interesting car. The proof, though, is in the metal. One would just have to see the car before deciding if the "history" is interesting enough to warrent the price. I wonder what the 510 crowd is saying about this.

[Ron Carter]

Hi Guys,

Carl, if the car was in original condition with the factory fenders still on the car I would be a little more inclined to agree with you. But, the car has been modified beyond it's original condition and it would be tricky to undo what has been done. Mr. Kohs is less than truthful in many of his comments which is also a red flag in my mind.

I was not going to post this as it shows the mindset of the owner and our conversation, and it was unpleasant.

Here are the exact responses from Peter, John and Gary.

Peter:

(1)

Hi Ron…I’m feeling pretty good, considering…I can get around on crutches, but not too speedy. I do remember Gary Kohs. He did NOT handle any race promotion for BRE but promised to do so, if I’d arrange two trucks for him from Nissan. I bought them out of my own racing budget and that was the last I saw of him…Ripped me off.

Peter

The 510 does look like a fair buy…especially if it stays around $1500! :0)

(2)

Yeah, Kohs is not a good guy, but I have to respect what he’s done. His high end model company makes really gorgeous things. I’m not in a cast anymore, and am getting around on forearm crutches pretty well. I hope you can get your 2000 accepted..we need more Japanese car credibility in the vintage scene. PB

John Morton:

Dennis,

I have no recollection of this car at BRE. It may have been something Kohs did in Detroit for Datsun that didn't fly. I don't think the BRE 510s were clear coated. The car may be a good deal if the price is right but it's a stretch to call it a BRE car.

I Don't think a ''full blown'' race car was ever built for the street and BRE didn't win every race it entered in any year. I think Pete's right in that Kohs didn't do race promotion as such but he did do some promotion.

John

Gary Kohs:

WARNING some of the language is nasty. I responded to Gary saying that his car was not a BRE car this is what I got in reply:

(1)

Listen pal...I can prove everything that has been said in the listing and if you think you have all the answers then let me assure you you don't. The car was put together by BRE and painted by Dave Kent. I handled this program for Datsun as well as their off road racing where we won that championship. When this car was built it was the second one built after the full blown race car for the street which as I remember was painted yellow. We also built a pickup truck in the same colors. I have no idea how many cars Brock ended up building and don't much give a $^!#. I went on to handle the Monroe Shock account and Ford account after Datsun and put Ford back into racing beginning in 1976. Clone????? It's a real BRE street car and the second one built..I can back this up...... My company is Marketing Corporation of America and we worked for the Merchandising department at Datsun on the I405 Freeway & Harbor Freeway in LA. Brock was in El Segundo where we spent much of our time. Any other questions? Mr. XXXX?

After getting this nasty response I backed off and asked more specific questions trying to get him to prove the validity of the car. I asked him for photos, because at the time there were only photos of the outside of the car, and they were poor. Gary Added more photos and sent me the following:

(2)

This car has a B210 5 speed in it, the engine was not modified, comp suspension, American mags and all that...so tell you what..call your buddy Pete Brock and ask him if he knows Gary Kohs, Marketing Corporation of America and whether he did this car and a truck for me and if I handle the promotion for the 510 and off road racing program...then you don't have to come on so ****ing strong. If I say it is somewthing then that';s what it is..period. I don't have to prove $^!# to you...I'll prove anything and everything to the buyer. And if you put the money where your mouth is and it's not a BRE car then I'll give you back double your money. Match that!

I told him that I would check with Peter Brock and get back to him and I guess he felt it was necessary to brag about his other items:

(3)

You check out whatever the hell you want to check out because you won't be bidding on this car. It'll go to someone I like first of all and someone who knows what the hell he is talking about. This car sits next to the unrestored personal car of Ettore Bugatti and across from the finest WWII Corsair fighter in the world. Goggle my name Gary Kohs and you'll see I don't mujch give a $^!# about your money or anyone elses. But I do care about real people who don't have the head up their arse. Someone will get the most original BRE in the world and it won't be you!

Okay at this point, he is claiming that this car was built by BRE. This is the response I got after sending him Peters response. This was the last correspondence I had with Gary. I did tell him I would not be bidding on his car.

(4)

Bull $^!#.....ask him about the sponsorship with Simonize and all the rest...bull $^!#! He has a bad memory if you're telling the truth. He did one truck which "I paid for. He did the 240Z for Baja instead and that was a farce of the first magnitude. I went out and hired Conner to run the trucks for me because Brock had burned out. Period. So you believe what you want..the person who gets the car will have no doubt whatsoever of what they got..no doubt at all. So no need to bother me any more is there?

I received the information from John a day or two later confirming that they did not build this car. Also I am told that it is not possible to bolt in a B210 transmission into a 510.

Those of you who know me, know that I can be a little fast to call BullShirt. But seldomly do I get wound up about this stuff. This guy went off...

[WingZr0]

A lot of built up Hate in that Cat

[280z1975]

I vote this as the most informative and entertaining thread this month ... personally would love to own the car (BRE or not) as a 510 would go nicely next to my 280z ... ah but that is just a dream for the moment ...

[sblake01]

..the person who gets the car will have no doubt whatsoever of what they got..no doubt at all.

Only if they beileve Mr. Kohs's B.S. Where is the documented history that Carl speaks of? All I see are, as Alan pointed out, are a bunch of do-dads, many of which I have, and this man's story that two very credible people with more than just casual knowledge on the subject have refuted.

[Arne]

Considering all the controversy, what I see now is a clean, very low miles 510 two-door, complete with some nice period add-ons. Ignore the argument about what the seller claims, just look at what you can see and touch. And it looks to me like it'd be a very cool starting point for a nice BRE-style street 510. Whether it is worth the current $6100 bid is a question that only those who want to buy it can answer. But if you figure what it's going to cost to bring your typical 510 up to snuff, and then compare that to what this car will need, and the current price may be a bargain - regardless who did the add-ons and such.

[BRE-240Z]

As someone who has some experience with 510's -- I had a hot fuel-injected '68 two door that was built over a period of several years, and recently sold (a photo of it was in a recent issue of Sport Z, matter of fact) -- I can say that this car may be interesting from the perspective of possibly being a low miles car, but it's just a clone.

There's nothing 'BRE' about this car other than the paint job. It has stock seats, stock suspension, a stock L16, and an upgraded transmission of some sort (certainly not a B210 tranny, because it won't fit, my guess is that it's a 200SX tranny, which will fit). The dead giveaway in my mind is the stock manifold, because unlike on the Z, going to headers is a tremendous power improvement on a 510. Any BRE car that I've ever seen has been upgraded with headers.

Clone! Did anyone say clone? BRE sold performance parts in the aftermarket, but the only 'street car' that BRE did, to my knowledge, was the Yellow Zonker, which was Pete Brock's personal car.

http://dimequarterly.tierranet.com/Autoweek.html

Is it worth $6000 or $7000 or whatever it's going to sell for? Maybe, but I doubt it. I'd want to see more documentation, rust-prone areas on the car, etc. But the seller has shown that he has very little idea of what he's got (the transmission not being 'as described' is a good example of this) and he's also uncooperative with regard to answering questions that are absolutely reasonable.

Two red flags, in my book. Buyer beware! Oh, but wait a minute....if Pete Brock says the guy is a thief, that's good enough for me. Three, four, five red flags.

[Arne]

I leeched some of the pictures to load into the thread. That way when someone reads this years from now they'll have an idea of what we have been discussing.

As for the car's provenance, I suspect the truth is somewhere in between, but closer to that of Mssr's Brock and Morton. Mr. Kohs is an advertising man, who is working from 30+ year old memories. I'm fairly comfortable that there is a kernel of truth in there, but by no means is this a true BRE car.

Still, as a rust-free, low miles 510 2 door, there's got to be some value to it.

[BRE-240Z]

It might be a good starting point. Might not, too, because the seller has not shown photos of the floorboards.....and if you think that's a problem area on a Z, wait until you spend some time inside a 510.

If the car goes for $7K-plus, and you have to source a motor, redo the suspension and brakes, put a ZX tranny and an LSD in it....well, you're suddenly looking at a pretty expensive 510. Suddenly your starting point is where the finishing point should have been.

510's are a different world. My car was nicely done, had a full interior with new carpets, recovered seats, the works. I had an 2.2 liter fuel-injected motor, a ZX five-speed, R160 LSD, Nissan Comp springs and Tokico HP shocks, Porterfields, Z rear brakes, Quickor sway bars....the car was nice, had more than enough power and handled like a dream. It sold on eBay for $7500 a year and a half ago, and that seemed like a remarkable sum at the time. Nice, completed cars are going in that neighborhood somewhat regularly now, but this particular car needs a lot (and I mean a lot) of help.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'd pass on this car, in any event....I think the price is being inflated by bidders who may think that it's something special, and the fact is, it just isn't.

[Ron Carter]

I think Gary is surprized at the people who came out of the woodwork regarding his BRE clone. There is the possibility that 35+ years have gone by and Gary thought that he could pass this off as a BRE car. Sorry Gary we aren't buying it...thou protest too much.

I see Gary as overly defensive because he has been caught in a lie, at the very least a stretch of the truth. If this was a documented BRE car it would fetch 20k plus in its current condition, as a very restorable example of a nice 510 with a unique history tied to BRE.

What can't be denied, is Gary was there. Some of the promotional items that come with the car are unique but, it still does not prove that this is a true BRE car.

I hope the new owner enjoys the car, as it is a nice period correct car. It's just not a BRE 510.

Enough is enough...

[26th-Z]

To all you history buffs and collectors of obsure Datsun history,

Copy the pictures of the literature from the eBay listing. The literature is authentic and probably the only time you are ever going to see it. Same for the picture of the stopwatch. Probably the only one in existance.