Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432

[sakijo]

Cost of S20? maybe.Let me think about price conversion back in 1970.

The 240Z in the U.S. was $3,526 ,I chose the Fairlady-ZL to the best comparison was 1,080,000JPY.

Z432 was 1,850,000JPY. S20 engine was saying aprox.700,000JPY.

Z432=1.712x ZL , so if Z432 was on sale in the U.S.,the price tag would be $6,040:eek: :eek: (please do not take this seriously)

What do you think of this price range?No-more good price?What about value for money in this case?

kats

Kats,

In 1970, $1.00 = Y360. So, Y1,850,000 = $5,139.00. Add shipping, customs, import tax, etc, and $6,040.00 seems to be very close, if not a little low. Value for the money? Certainly. But remember the mind of Americans at that time - Japanese car = cheap transportation. $6,040.00 could buy a lot more American car, so I think it would not sell well at that time.

[Carl Beck]

Hi Kats:

The seat bottoms you show at Post #31 - have black seat tracks. All of them I've seen here in the US were originally an olive green or olive drab, seemed to be a rust proofing paint. Were the JDM seat tracks black for some reason?

regards,

Carl

[HS30-H]

Too bad that NONE of us ( even Japan ) ever got the triple-carbed 'High Po' L-gata version of the '240Z' - whose shoes the 432 model was created to fill - alongside the more sedate models. In fact, markets outside Japan might have enjoyed any kind of multi-level model variant choice come to that.

Hello Alan, can you elaborate on this model? One of a kind? Works cars? Please, please tell what you know.

Chris,

To try to cut a long story short:

Basically, once the L-series six had been assigned for use on what would become the S30-series Z, a 'high performance' version of it was scheduled to be fitted to a special model for the range. This 'high performance' version was going to be sold in most territories as a kind of image-building model that would set a tone for the rest of the range to follow. Japan was going to have this triple-sidedraught carbed L24 in the Z too.

But then - and this is not too long after Prince was merged with Nissan - the top brass 'noticed' that they already had a high performance engine on the cards that was being developed from the Prince GR8 race engine. This was the two litre S20 twin-cam, and it was going to fitted to the new C10 Skyline range that was soon to debut with Prince-derived fours and Nissan's L-gata six.

Much to the annoyance of the proudly ex-Prince 'Skyline' team at Murayama ( an ex-Prince plant ), Nissan's management forced them to supply S20 twin cams for the S30-series Z range project, and dropped the idea of the 'High Po' L24-engined model. This gave them their 'image-building' high performance model, and made good use of a valuable - if somewhat underused - S20 engine resource. All through the project however, the Murayama guys were grinding their teeth at the thought of their precious S20 being used on the arch-Nissan S30 project, and dragged their heels somewhat through the development process. This resistance sowed the seeds for the race exploits of the 432R to be curtailed somewhat early, and for high performance L24 engines from Oppama and Omori to be be installed in the race-winning 432R bodies. Basically, the Murayama boys didn't really want their 'Prince' and 'Skyline' engine to be associated with the 'enemy' crew and their 'Nissan' Z. Hence the Oppama race team's bad-mouthing of the ( race winning! ) S20 engine when they switched back to the L-gata half way through the 1970 season. Just factional inter-departmental war-mongering at heart.............

That's it in a nutshell, really. If you think of the S30 range as a 'family' of different models through the design, engineering and production stages then it makes sense and sounds logical. Nissan did this kind of thing with all their models during this period, so it would be strange for them not to have had an image-leader high-performance version of the Z too. That 'High Po' L24 engined version is one of the great lost S30-series Z 'ghost' models.

Hope I did the story justice.......

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

Looking at the pic of the brake and clutch masters, can you tell me why there are what looks like two ballast resistors attached to the firewall?

I can answer this if Kats does not mind.

The 432 and 432R used a Mitsubishi electronic ignition system, and it incorporated extra ballast resistors.

Fergie! Eek!

Were the JDM seat tracks black for some reason?

No, they were that delicious olive green the same as everywhere else. Kats' appear to have been painted black.

Alan T.

[Carl Beck]

Hello Alan, can you elaborate on this model? One of a kind? Works cars? Please, please tell what you know.

Chris

Hi Chris:

The image below is one of the original Sales Brochures that the Datsun Dealers in the US had before the first Datsun 240-Z's arrived here for public sale in late Dec. of 1969. From these sales brochures the Dealers took advanced sales orders, many customers ordered the Z's and paid for them in advance, to get at the head of the delivery list.

As you can see, at that time the plan was for a 175HP, L24, with triple side drafts etc., 5.5" wheels and a 5spd for the US Market "DATSUN 240Z SPORTS".

Between the released Federal Emissions Standards in 1966 and the 1967 Federal Safety Standards for the US , both these regulations were in constant flux, written, re-written and debated in Congress, public hearing held, conferences with Industry conducted etc etc - until finally issued in their final form for 1970.

Nissan and all the other Automobile Manufacturers were lobbying the U.S. Federal Government for delayed implementation, or requirements reductions in these standards, ahead of that time; while the Environmentalists and Safety Nuts - lobbied for stricter and faster implementations.

Nissan assigned a Vice President on Nissan Motors in USA, to represent them in Washington D.C. in 1966. In this regard Mr. Kawazoe reported directly to the President of Nissan Motors Ltd in Japan. He was not only the official representative of Nissan Motors Ltd. to the legislative and executive branches of the US Government. Mr. Kawazoe also acted for the Automotive Importers of America, of which he was the vice-president. In addition, he was designated as the spokesman for the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association, of which the President of Nissan Motors Ltd, was the President at the time. (JAMA).

When the emissions standards were finally set for 1970, in order to get the 240-Z certified for sale in the US - it took a somewhat de-tuned L24 with lower compression, the S.U.'s and an Air Pump for California. The Air Pump was needed to meet the 71 standards for the US anyway, by June of 1970 as I recall, so it too became standard on all the 240-Z's coming into North America as well. Of course our Emissions and Safety Standards got ever more stringent for 72, 73, 74, 75, 77, etc etc etc.... The main reason the US got the Fuel Injected 280Z...

FWIW,

Carl B.

[jackwarnock]

Hullo All

I hope this doesn't take us all too far away from the original Thread. I am very impressed with the restoration by Kats of his 432R car. There has been a little discussion about costs when this car was first released.

I am very interested to know what a car like Kats would be worth now (in say US$)?? The quality of Kats' restoration must be up there with the best, so would set something of a benchmark for values of Z cars. Can anyone comment?

Here in Australia there have been sales of "Aussie Muscle Cars" reaching AUD500,000. In particular Ford Falcon GTHO Phase III cars have sold in this price bracket.

When I bought my first 240Z in 1970, mates were buying GTHO Falcons. The cost was "about the same". I cannot recall the exact prices of course. However, the best of those GTHO's are know worth (cost???) seriously big money.

So my question is: What is a top quality 240Z (like Kats' 432R for example) worth?

I think this would be most interesting to know!!

Regards, Jack

[ChrisA]

Thank you Alan and Carl. Two different answers to my question about the Hi-Po L24 engine. Very interesting and I can understand both sides.

It's indeed a shame that every market worldwide was not given the full family of S30's. I'd be confident that an S20 or triple carbed L24 model would have sold like hot dogs at Nathan's in the states.

I understand all the "lore" of Nissan not wanting to overextend themselves in the U.S. but I'll always be disappointed that they didn't expand the U.S. model lineup when the cars imported here were selling like crazy.

Chris

[hls30.com]

Thank you Alan and Carl. Two different answers to my question about the Hi-Po L24 engine. Very interesting and I can understand both sides.

It's indeed a shame that every market worldwide was not given the full family of S30's. I'd be confident that an S20 or triple carbed L24 model would have sold like hot dogs at Nathan's in the states.

I understand all the "lore" of Nissan not wanting to overextend themselves in the U.S. but I'll always be disappointed that they didn't expand the U.S. model lineup when the cars imported here were selling like crazy.

Chris

I second everything you said!

Will

[HS30-H]

Thank you Alan and Carl. Two different answers to my question about the Hi-Po L24 engine. Very interesting and I can understand both sides.

Chris,

You are welcome. As I say, I hope I did the ( Japanese ) story some justice. You will get different versions of the story depending on the perspective and allegiances of the teller, and - make no mistake - some of the bad feeling and personality clashes still linger to this day.

One thing you might want to take into account with regard to the story of the higher performance L24-engined 'ghost' model that the 432 / 432R replaced, is that Nissan still produced most of the parts ( and more besides ) that were to be fitted to this model and they sold them through their 'Sports Options' lists in Japan. This meant that a customer in Japan could walk into the appropriate dealership in Japan and specify a new Z with as many of these Sports Option parts as he required. The car would then be built to order and delivered for one price - so the choice of a 'hot' L-engined version was still there.

These 'Sports Option' parts were available in some other markets - but just as parts. However, here in the UK the concessionaires ( Datsun UK ) didn't want anything to do with them. Anybody in the UK who wanted the stuff had to approach a dealer who would lend a kind ear, or approach Nissan in Japan direct. Not fair, eh?

By the way, notice that the English language Japanese brochure that Carl attached above describes the car as the "H(L)S30(U)"? Some people seem to miss the full significance of that designation..........

I am very impressed with the restoration by Kats of his 432R car.

What is a top quality 240Z (like Kats' 432R for example) worth?

Jack,

Nitpicking for a moment ( sorry ): Please note that Kats' new car is a 'PS30' model Fairlady Z432. It is NOT a 'PS30-SB' model Fairlady Z432-R ( which is rarer by a factor of around 20 ). It is also ( adamantly, I suspect! ) NOT a "240Z" either.........

But to attempt to answer your question; The very BEST Fairlady Z432 models change hands privately, and don't often get openly advertised for sale. The better examples of cars that DO change hands through advertising are currently demanding upwards of the equivalent to around US$50,000~60,000

and this is an upward trend. Proper 432-R models ( less than 25 sold to the general public ) have already changed hands for over US$120,000.

Alan T.

[ChrisA]

By the way, notice that the English language Japanese brochure that Carl attached above describes the car as the "H(L)S30(U)"? Some people seem to miss the full significance of that designation..........

Alan T.

Ah yes, I went back and looked at that again. Seems like the designation (L) is kind of an afterthought in my opinion.

Regarding the bad feelings and personality clashes, I can relate. In my profession the Mack/Volvo marriage has not been a bed of roses.

Thanks again for the information.

Chris

[daddz]

Kats,

In 1970, $1.00 = Y360. So, Y1,850,000 = $5,139.00. Add shipping, customs, import tax, etc, and $6,040.00 seems to be very close, if not a little low. Value for the money? Certainly. But remember the mind of Americans at that time - Japanese car = cheap transportation. $6,040.00 could buy a lot more American car, so I think it would not sell well at that time.

Miles and kats,

I can only imagine the astute car enthusiast with means in 1970 being able to purchase both a Toyota 2000GT and a Z432. To have actually driven both cars such as Alan is truly a remarkable feat without having been a journalist from that era.

As always thanks again for the great photos.

[Carl Beck]

Ah yes, I went back and looked at that again. Seems like the designation (L) is kind of an afterthought in my opinion.

Chris

Hi Chris:

It was most likely a good after thought too - since it covered 98.2% of the Datsun 240-Z's in 1970. By the end of 1973 the "L" covered about 97.5% of all Datsun 240-Z's.

In 1969/70 there were over 940 Datsun Dealers in the US, plus another 65 or so in Canada.... Can you name a country in the world that had over 10 Datsun Dealers outside North America?

Like I said, it must have been a very good after thought - yes?

FWIW,

Carl B.