Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432

[=Enigma=]

I believe that those are towing hooks . . . Tow something with a Z? Go figure. Anyway, my Skyline has one in the center and it's a JDM model.

They are most definitely not tow hooks. The points they are mount to are not strong enough to handle the stress of towing. These are in fact tie down hooks that were supposed to be removed by the dealer before sale. Obviously many dealers didn't do this.

[boyblunda]

Two previous threads on tow hooks and rings follow

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9247&highlight=tow+hooks

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23171&highlight=tow+hooks

[HS30-H]

Ah yes, I went back and looked at that again. Seems like the designation (L) is kind of an afterthought in my opinion.

Well, any inference of the "(L)" looking like an "afterthought" might end up in an emotive conversation - but that's not what I intended to point out.

The fact is that Nissan quite often did this kind of thing when describing models in the S30-series range ( and indeed many other models ), and I think it gives an insight into the way they thought about the models concerned on that piece of paper. My point was that the quoted "H(L)S30(U)", when extrapolated properly, would cover the following models:

*HS30 ( Japanese market - RHD L24 engined models )

*HS30-U ( Export market - RHD L24 engined models )

*HLS30 ( European mainland Export market - L24 engined models )

*HLS30-U ( USA & Canada Export markets - L24 engined models )

See my point? The term is more inclusive than some realise or remember. Since the document concerned was written well before any of the cars concerned were on sale to the general public, one has to wonder just what the following quote has to do with it:

It was most likely a good after thought too - since it covered 98.2% of the Datsun 240-Z's in 1970. By the end of 1973 the "L" covered about 97.5% of all Datsun 240-Z's.

Yes, we know how many cars were sold in the USA/Canadian markets - but how do these numbers sold diminish the fact that the S30-series Z range was designed, engineered and produced as just that: a range or family of models - both LHD and RHD, and with differences in equipment and specifications across that range. Numbers sold tell us some of the story - but it is not the whole story - and they certainly do not give us a true perspective of the compromises and concessions made during the planning of the range. Numbers sold come after that fact, and are directly linked to the potential of those markets ( especially their populations and the price at which the product is sold ).

I believe that the Z Car is American Centric and it seems there is this constant fog ball here that attempts to blur that fact.

I think anybody who can see a little further than the end of their own nose would easily see that the S30-series Z is a Japanese product that was designed, engineered and produced to suit several different markets, and several types of end user. If you think that preaching that message is to blur the facts then I feel rather sorry for you. Unfortunately Carl, you yourself are guilty of some of the worst cases of fact-blurring and spin on forums such as this one. Here are some good examples:

"Everything about the history of the Z Car seems to prove it was "centered" solely around the USA market."

"The history of the design and development, production and sales of the LHD Z - shows clearly that the "240-Z" is the "Daddy". I don't believe that's a personal "bias" - just a presentation of the facts."

"Yes, the total story of the Z would have to include a short chapter about all the various minor incarnations for nitch markets. However if you think they are "as important", "as significant" as the HLS30 - - then I have to believe you have missed the real "Story Of The Z Car".

"The Fairlady Z's are interesting and they allowed Nissan to sell a few more cars in their home market - but your assertion that they were "as important", "as significant" or evenly weighted in the design consideration of the Z - are simply - well - your opinion. However I would suggest that your opinion is not based on any real facts nor sound logic."

"The real story of the Z Car - is carried by the Datsun 240-Z - as specified, as designed, as built for the American market."

Now, I think anybody would be able to see that those are some pretty aggressive views to be held on a Japanese industrial product - and to be honest ( from my perpective at least ) they are more than a little jingoistic. You really should not be all that surprised if some people take offence to such comments, and point out that they are don't really hold as much water as you seem to think they do. One only has to take one of these cars apart to get a clue as to the wrong-headedness of such bluster. Better still, line up the whole S30-series Z model range as it was at launch and one will instantly see that there is more to the story than what you usually put forward. Quantities sold tell us one part of the story - but nothing like the whole story. I'm interested in the whole story, and the inescapable fact is that it is a Japanese story of a Japanese product.

Just looking at numbers sold is a very dangerous pastime for the automotive scholar. One could be led to believe that VW's Type 1, 2 & 3 models ( somewhat pioneering that lucrative USA market ) were actually 'American' cars because of the quantities sold there. How about the Porsche 356 and 911, or even ( dare I say it ) numerous English 'sports' cars of the 1950s & 1960s? They all sold in impressive numbers to the USA market, but that doesn't tell the whole story, does it?

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

In 1969/70 there were over 940 Datsun Dealers in the US, plus another 65 or so in Canada.... Can you name a country in the world that had over 10 Datsun Dealers outside North America?

You serious Carl,

10 Dealers outside the US, please, I supplied you with the list of Australian Dealers which listed over 330 Datsun Dealers.

Why do you have to be so USA centric?

That's just too funny...

I believe it was earlier established that in 1970 there were a few authorized Nissan Distributors in Australia.

Too funny?

You know Carl, if you want to continue citing these little factoids as proof that the USA / Canada market was BIG ( wow - who'd a thunk it? ) then you will have to do a little more in-depth research into the numbers you use. And to think that you are the one talking about the blurring of facts!

For your reference ( maybe you'll write this down ): In 1970, Datsun UK had over 110 franchised and active dealerships. That's a few more than 10.

I'll give you some kudos if you can tell me just how many Nissan dealerships were active in Japan ( you know - that little place on the other side of the world that made "American" cars for you ) during the same period.

Always bearing in mind that such data is actually "irrelevant" as far as you seem to be concerned.

[kats]

Hi,

I will never sold my Zs.I drive and drive them until they worn out.I do not keep them displayed in the garage,it is not good for maintaining mechanical condition.I do not care stone scratch on the fresh paint.

Sometimes I ask myself how long I can enjoy such an old car?I am afraid someday Global worming,gas run out,etc will make me stop driving an old car. I am not serious right now but sometimes I think like that.

I know if I sell my Zs I can not earn same amount of money which I payed for.I will loose lots of money even if I sell them right now.Even more I loose more money when I sell after 10 or 20 years later,Zs will accumulate lots of miles and no-more clean condition,and what if there will be the regulation of Prohibition of driving old car?

I do not have any idea what I am doing after 10 or 20 years.So,I want to enjoy right now.

kats

[Carl Beck]

Hi,

I will never sold my Zs.I drive and drive them until they worn out.

...snipped...

I do not have any idea what I am doing after 10 or 20 years.So,I want to enjoy right now.

kats

Hi Kats:

Funny - that is exactly the way I was thinking when I had my First wife.

just kidding,

Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

Too funny?

You know Carl, if you want to continue citing these little factoids as proof that the USA / Canada market was BIG ( wow - who'd a thunk it? ) then you will have to do a little more in-depth research into the numbers you use. And to think that you are the one talking about the blurring of facts!

As I've said before - I do the best I can. Perhaps instead of cursing the darkness, you'll light a candle and publish the information and their sources that you have.

The numbers I used were from memory - Nissan USA reported 922 Authorized Datsun Dealers in 1970. Oops.. I was off by 18.

It is not so much a matter of the USA/Canada markets being big, as it is a matter of historical fact that Japan very specifically wished to export automobiles to America. Could have been because it was the largest market, could have been because it was the most open. What ever the reason, the fact is it was America into which Japan Inc. wished to sell their exports, and for which they were willing to build what Americans wanted to buy.

Really unlike the auto manufacturers in GB and Europe that seemed to think we should appreciate their offerings for what they were, rather than attempting to make them as more of us would have wanted.

For your reference ( maybe you'll write this down ): In 1970, Datsun UK had over 110 franchised and active dealerships. That's a few more than 10.

Really? Wow.. I wonder how Richard Feast missed that.. You'll have to give me your source for that data, and I will include it in my references.

According to Richard Feast's "Datsun's foothold in Britain", AUTOSPORT July 29, 1971.... for example:

Less than 2000 Datsuns were sold in GB in 1970. The original franchise was handled by the Layford Group, but was eventually sold. Datsun UK Ltd. was FORMED at the end of 1970. I suppose that is one reason that the UK received only a couple 240-Z's in 1970.

By the end of 1971 they were moving into their new facilities at Esplanade House in Worthing. Datsun UK Ltd. employed about 40 people. Between the end of 1970 and the report by Feast in mid 71 Datsun UK had "signed up" about 120 garages willing to sell Datsuns. He didn't break out the number of Nissan Authorized Dealers, actually open for business in 1970. He did report that Nissan said they sold less than 2000 units there in 1970.

Feast writes:

- Quote -

"The method of introducing Datsuns to the British market was through dealer conventions. Local garage owners, professional people, potential customers and press were invited to a centre to hear about and sample the product. The result is some 120 garages selling Datsuns, some tempted from previously well established dealerships."

- end quote -

Of course we all know that articles in Automotive Magazines are often wrong. Nonetheless from memory it seems to agree with other sources I've run across.

So I'll accept your answer to my Question - that GB is one country to have over 10 Dealers in 1970. With farther research I'm sure we can identify at least 10 Dealers in Australia as well - but so far we have only a list of Authorized Distributors there for 1970... some of which were still listed as Prince Distributors. It was a Nissan issued document, I'll see if I can find it again.

Nonetheless it wasn't so much that the American market was BIG - so much as it is the fact that it is THE market that Nissan decided to compete in - in a big way first.

I'll give you some kudos if you can tell me just how many Nissan dealerships were active in Japan ( you know - that little place on the other side of the world that made "American" cars for you ) during the same period.

Well I'm glad to see that you finally accept the fact that Nissan Motors Ltd. was willing and able to design and build the cars their Customers in America wanted to buy. Big comfortable cars with lots of power! )

I'm not really sure that Nissan Motors Ltd. in Japan actually had franchised Dealerships, in the sense that we did here in America. Where large inventories of new cars were on display, large Parts Departments socked huge inventories of parts and Service Departments handled all warranty work and mechanical work after the sale.

Perhaps you could light a candle there as well, and inform us all of the exact retail sales arrangements in Japan in 1970. Did retail salesmen really come to one's home to sell the car, or is that just an urban legend ? Did one buy their car one place, then take it elsewhere for service or repair? What was the warranty on a new car purchased in Japan?

Nonetheless, what ever the sales arrangements of the Japanese sales outlets, they sold about 3% of the total number of 240-Z's in Japan, and about 12% of the total Z Cars produced 70-73, into the home market. Nissan reported total production of vehicles at 1,374,022 of which 71% were sold into the JDM, so it was certainly a large and viable market for the right cars.

Always bearing in mind that such data is actually "irrelevant" as far as you seem to be concerned.

I'm not really sure what data you are referring to. Did you provide some data?... Oh, the Datsun UK having over 110 franchised and active dealers IN 1970?... Do you have a better source that explains how they managed that when they were formed in the last few months of that year? I'm not saying it isn't possible - just seems unlikey that 110 dealers would have sold less than 2000 vehicles in 1970 there. The 922 Dealers sold just over 150,000 Datsun in 1970, and just over 250,000 in 1971. Mostly because Nissan supplied them with the vehicles, but never enough to meet the demand, we were always waiting on more cars and trucks.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Walter Moore]

...Too bad they don't have Corvettes and Mustangs to blow off in England or Japan...

As I was on my way to the Narita airport on my way home this February a very new looking Corvette passed my bus on the freeway. It was left hand drive of course, so I suspect that they only place where the owner can safely pass is on the freeway.

[HS30-H]

Perhaps instead of cursing the darkness, you'll light a candle and publish the information and their sources that you have.

Darkness? I'm the one with my eyes wide open, trying to imagine the WORLD situation in the same way that Nissan was seeing it during the period concerned. I'm not looking down the wrong end of a telescope that is pointing in the wrong direction - as you so often seem to be.

Your above post is a good example of the way you seem to want to twist data or 'facts' to suit your particular agenda, and then discount any evidence offered that contradicts it by simply moving your goal posts. You ask if any country outside the USA had more than 10 dealers in 1970 ( laughably ignoring Japan......! ) and then backpedal like crazy when somebody comes up with numbers that make your question look shortsighted and ill-informed. Worst of all you seem to have the stance that all situations in all territories should be compared using the situation in the USA as the benchmark - when you appear to know next to nothing about the situation in the home territory of the manufacturing company concerned, or realise that they had a very wide view of the potential of a WORLD market and were actively pursuing it.

I'm not really sure what data you are referring to. Did you provide some data?... Oh, the Datsun UK having over 110 franchised and active dealers IN 1970?... Do you have a better source that explains how they managed that when they were formed in the last few months of that year?

Your quote from the Autosport ( UK ) article of 1971 - and your comments on the content therein - also show how little you 'get'. The reason that you can't believe that Datsun UK Ltd. managed to have over 110 franchised and active dealers in the UK in 1970 when they were formed "in the last few months of that year" is because you are totally ignoring ( or totally oblivious? ) to the fact that this was simply a re-structuring and re-naming of the previous franchise situation - a company known as 'Nissan-Datsun Concessionaires Ltd'. The import of Nissan products to the UK did not begin in 1970, and there were many franchised and active dealerships in the UK before 1970.

You might well try to split hairs about the status of these franchised dealers, and the fact that they were selling comparatively low numbers of cars in comparison to elsewhere. However, you would also need to take into account that they were operating in a market that was very competitive, and which already had a good choice of comparable products at similar prices being sold by more well-established companies that were not shipping their products half way around the world. Nevertheless, Nissan were taking the UK market seriously as part of their WORLD view - as part of a European market sector - in just the same way as they were taking territories like Finland seriously. They were NOT putting all of their eggs in one basket.

Data? Try this for starters:

[HS30-H]

Hi Jack:

I know that one 432Z in Japan, was offered for sale at $75K USD. The two serious collectors that were considering it - declined. Both expressed the risk of buying a car without going personally to inspect it, the hassle with the exchange rates and transferring large amounts of money outside the US now (Homeland Security), as well as the hassle of getting the car shipped safely from Japan to the Gulf Coast here in the USA.

Taking to them, I believe that if a solid #1 or #2 432Z with proper documentation was offered for sale here in the US, both would have been buyers in the $50K to $60K range Alan mentioned, and perhaps a bit more for the right car.

Carl,

I'm having great trouble in understanding just what kind of a real-world example the above case is meant to illustrate? Two "serious collectors" ( in the USA I presume? ) were "considering" a car that was being sold in Japan, but eventually did not buy it because.............. because er,............... because they would / could not travel to inspect it, transfer the money to pay for it, and the shipping was too much "hassle"?

I'm sorry, but what does this little escapade tell us about the prices that Fairlady Z432s change hands for in Japan?! As far as I can see, it actually tells us more about the two "serious collectors" ( hereinafter to be known as the "not so serious collectors"..... ) than it does about the market in Japan. That is of course presuming that you are relating the story accurately (?)......

It doesn't take much to jump on a 'plane to Japan ( although your "serious collectors" might need to own a valid Passport and be able to afford the few hundred Dollars for the air fare ) to go and inspect something that costs a fair chunk of anyone's money. Having to transfer money to Japan in payment for the car is a given, and people do it safely every day. It would be illegal for them to take that amount of cash into Japan by hand without declaring it on arrival - so how else were they thinking this was going to work? Shipping a car of that value from Japan to anywhere in the USA is easy, easy, easy - and certainly a lot easier to arrange, faster and cheaper than the cars that I have shipped from Japan to UK.

The market for Fairlady Z432s is in Japan - simply because that is where all the cars are currently located. Jack - who asked the question - is in Australia. I am in England. How on earth does the aborted interest of these two "serious collectors" or your 'assessment' of a theoretical situation should such a car come up for sale in the USA have any bearing on the prices of cars that change hands in Japan?

It has none whatsoever. It did however provide me with a good laugh on a Monday morning. For that at least, thank you! :classic:

[26th-Z]

Kats,

I am with you! I will never sell my cars. Yes they might be more valuable some day but I do not care. I will still drive them. If I only wanted to make money, I would not invest in cars. Everyone knows that.

My post #40 was so tounge-in-cheek. You guys need to lighten up!

[boyblunda]

THREAD SPLIT??

Hi All

Kats, what fantastic vehicles. Your efforts are truly interesting and inspirational. I really admire the passion you have for your cars and am sincerely grateful for the way you share all of your information with this forum.

There has been a digression of discussion into the matter of dealerships around the world which is interesting and valuable to me at least but is something that might not be rediscovered by others searching the archives in future years.

I have started a new thread for this topic and hope that the discussion might continue in a place that is easily referred to in the future. Do we think that this might be better discussed and recorded for posterity at http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26254 ?

Hope I am operating within appropriate forum ettiquette here.