Datsun-240z Vs Fairlady-z432

[kats]

Thanks Gavin , great info ! 
“What I noticed with HS30's (In Australia anyway) is that the 72 model year is by far the rarest model (compared to 70,71 and 73). I am guessing this is because Nissan ramped up production of Fairlady 240Z and Fairlady 240ZGs around this time period and perhaps made less HS30's for Australia, NZ, PNG, South Africa, UK, Hong Kong etc..” 

This is new and making sense to me . Looking at this figure , Fairlady 240Z series were approximately 1200 cars in 1972. 
 

Kats

Edited March 18, 2022 by kats

[bartsscooterservice]

@katsthe blue color crank pulley is interesting ! Always thought the where black...

[HS30-H]

On 3/16/2022 at 5:34 PM, kats said:

I saw someone said Nissan only made HLS30 first , like 100 or 1000 240Zs . I would like to share this with people who are interested in how they made our cars . We have a good source. 
 

 

I just want to take a moment to quote this post, and say that the document - marked 'Secret', no less - which Kats obtained and showed us here some years ago, seems somewhat underappreciated.

I think it is dynamite. Probably the single most telling piece of official documentation relating to the genesis of these cars I have ever seen. It is, in my opinion, something of a Rosetta Stone...  

It has it all. Dated 25th June 1969, and with a big 'Hi' stamp (for 'Himitsu'/Secret), it is titled ''270 Kei-sha C/# Dakoku Yōshiki', and it gives us the type designation, purpose, company department destination and actual identity of the first fourteen cars in the project to be given full chassis numbers. 

 

First of all, there's no 'Datsun 240Z', 'Fairlady Z', 'Fairlady Z432' etc etc here yet. We know that the project was nicknamed 'Maru Z' (Z in a circle cipher) and was given the internal project number '270 K.K.' ('270 Kaihatsu Kigou'), a glimpse of the terms being used within Nissan just before production. Personally I always wondered where the '240Z' name came from for the Export cars, as it doesn't seem to make much sense ('2400Z' or '2.4Z' might seem odd to us now, but they are certainly more logical) and I am convinced that the '270KK' project code is what actually inspired it. The '240Z' name was a late assignation, after 'Fairlady Z' was rejected for the Export cars. I think the '270' code inspired '240Z' when a name was required at short notice.

Secondly, it shows us that - quite logically - 'S30-00001' was the first '270' project chassis to be given a full series identity. 'S30' was the designated series number and the S30-prefixed models of Fairlady Z and Fairlady Z-L were key parts of the family tree. This was how Nissan structured the variants of other models too; a good example would be the C10-series Skyline, where C10 was the series and C10-prefixed models were the building blocks for the structure of other variants in engineering and documentation.  

Thirdly, and I think this is particularly interesting, the second car to be given a number is described as being an 'HL270' variant. Naturally, with LHD exports being a key part of the whole project, we would expect this to be a North American market type variant. However, that does not seem to be the case. That 'HL270' designation would appear to show it as being a general export LHD variant. So 'HLS30-00001' looks to have been what we might call a 'Euro' LHD type variant.

The third car is a 'P270' variant - the 'P' indicating the S20 twin cam engine - and it was given chassis number 'PS30-00001'.

Fourth car, first of the 'Ichiji Seishi' cars and destined to be a 'Soko test' car, has an 'HL270U' designation. That 'U' suffix would - according to Nissan's usual habit - indicate a North American market type variant when applied to an 'HLS30' prefixed chassis number. This was 'HLS30-00002'.

We then get 'S30-00002', given the designation '270C' (or is that '270L'?). Certainly there's a distinction between this car's designation and the designation of 'S30-00001'. I'm guessing that one is a Z-L (Deluxe) and one is a Z-S (Standard)? That fits with Nissan's modus operandi too. Or does it possibly indicate a factory AirCon car...?

Seventh car to be given a number, and the 4th 'Seisan Shisaku' car, is an 'H270U' designated variant. That would mean RHD Export type, and it was 'HS30-00001'. Another 'Soko test' car.  

 

So there they are. The first fourteen numbered cars. We are extremely privileged to see a key internal planning document of this type (thank you Kats) and I would say it deserves a thread of its own, and a little more recognition.  

           

 

[xs10shl]

RE 270: if 240Z was truly inspired by "project 270", it does make one wonder if there was a design on the board for a 450cc capacity per cylinder at one point.  or I suppose, even more radically, a 300cc 9-cylinder. 

 

Kidding about that last part.   

[xs10shl]

Apologies for the interjection - I'm fiddling with my CDI setup, and in looking at the schematic, I've come across a 0.73 Ohm resistor which I cant find on the car.  In addition, my wiring loom doesn't have a Black/Yellow (+12v from ignition) and a Black/White wire (as shown in pin 1 and 7), but rather 2 Black/White wires. Pin 7 is basically powered from the same supply as pin 1, with the addition of a resistor. 

The car is an early 1970, and this diagram is from 1971.  Was there a change introduced, potentially to ease the number of issues with the CDI?  These two +12v wires are essentially un-fused (in both cases), and come straight from the amp gauge, through the ignition, and into the CDI unit, so I can see where there would be a "dead short" potential.

[HS30-H]

54 minutes ago, xs10shl said:

Apologies for the interjection - I'm fiddling with my CDI setup, and in looking at the schematic, I've come across a 0.73 Ohm resistor which I cant find on the car.

Second resistor was sited up on the firewall, kind of hiding behind the washer bottle. If your car is missing it then I presume it was part of the switch to aftermarket CDI system over the factory (Mitsubishi) igniter unit?

57 minutes ago, xs10shl said:

The car is an early 1970, and this diagram is from 1971.  Was there a change introduced, potentially to ease the number of issues with the CDI?

Here's a scan of the same section of the schematic from the 1969 factory manual, which should be more appropriate for your early 1970 car. Pin #1 on the CDI Igniter is different:

[xs10shl]

Thx Alan - all sorted.  Resistor was still hiding in plain sight.  The drawing made it appear that it was somehow nearby the CDI Igniter, as opposed to clear across the car.

[kats]

On 3/21/2022 at 8:22 PM, HS30-H said:

I just want to take a moment to quote this post, and say that the document - marked 'Secret', no less - which Kats obtained and showed us here some years ago, seems somewhat underappreciated.

I think it is dynamite. Probably the single most telling piece of official documentation relating to the genesis of these cars I have ever seen. It is, in my opinion, something of a Rosetta Stone...  

It has it all. Dated 25th June 1969, and with a big 'Hi' stamp (for 'Himitsu'/Secret), it is titled ''270 Kei-sha C/# Dakoku Yōshiki', and it gives us the type designation, purpose, company department destination and actual identity of the first fourteen cars in the project to be given full chassis numbers. 

 

First of all, there's no 'Datsun 240Z', 'Fairlady Z', 'Fairlady Z432' etc etc here yet. We know that the project was nicknamed 'Maru Z' (Z in a circle cipher) and was given the internal project number '270 K.K.' ('270 Kaihatsu Kigou'), a glimpse of the terms being used within Nissan just before production. Personally I always wondered where the '240Z' name came from for the Export cars, as it doesn't seem to make much sense ('2400Z' or '2.4Z' might seem odd to us now, but they are certainly more logical) and I am convinced that the '270KK' project code is what actually inspired it. The '240Z' name was a late assignation, after 'Fairlady Z' was rejected for the Export cars. I think the '270' code inspired '240Z' when a name was required at short notice.

Secondly, it shows us that - quite logically - 'S30-00001' was the first '270' project chassis to be given a full series identity. 'S30' was the designated series number and the S30-prefixed models of Fairlady Z and Fairlady Z-L were key parts of the family tree. This was how Nissan structured the variants of other models too; a good example would be the C10-series Skyline, where C10 was the series and C10-prefixed models were the building blocks for the structure of other variants in engineering and documentation.  

Thirdly, and I think this is particularly interesting, the second car to be given a number is described as being an 'HL270' variant. Naturally, with LHD exports being a key part of the whole project, we would expect this to be a North American market type variant. However, that does not seem to be the case. That 'HL270' designation would appear to show it as being a general export LHD variant. So 'HLS30-00001' looks to have been what we might call a 'Euro' LHD type variant.

The third car is a 'P270' variant - the 'P' indicating the S20 twin cam engine - and it was given chassis number 'PS30-00001'.

Fourth car, first of the 'Ichiji Seishi' cars and destined to be a 'Soko test' car, has an 'HL270U' designation. That 'U' suffix would - according to Nissan's usual habit - indicate a North American market type variant when applied to an 'HLS30' prefixed chassis number. This was 'HLS30-00002'.

We then get 'S30-00002', given the designation '270C' (or is that '270L'?). Certainly there's a distinction between this car's designation and the designation of 'S30-00001'. I'm guessing that one is a Z-L (Deluxe) and one is a Z-S (Standard)? That fits with Nissan's modus operandi too. Or does it possibly indicate a factory AirCon car...?

Seventh car to be given a number, and the 4th 'Seisan Shisaku' car, is an 'H270U' designated variant. That would mean RHD Export type, and it was 'HS30-00001'. Another 'Soko test' car.  

 

So there they are. The first fourteen numbered cars. We are extremely privileged to see a key internal planning document of this type (thank you Kats) and I would say it deserves a thread of its own, and a little more recognition.  

           

 

BIG THANKS ALAN !!

You said it all .Your said “ Rosetta Stone “ , I am shivering with it .

I am feeling that I want to make a statue of the document , and put your commentary aside. 
 

Where is the best place to display? Thanks Alan.
 

Kats

Edited March 23, 2022 by kats

[Gav240z]

3 hours ago, kats said:

Where is the best place to display? Thanks Alan.

Write an email to Carl Beck and ask him to post it on Zhome.com 🙂

Tongue firmly planted in cheek. 🙂

[kats]

3 hours ago, Gav240z said:

Write an email to Carl Beck and ask him to post it on Zhome.com 🙂

Tongue firmly planted in cheek. 🙂

Hi Gavin, I already have an image of it .Will be a big monument rather than a statue. 
Nissan Shatai HIRATSUKA factory is the place I think .

I have visited there once with club members , “ factory tour “ . I want visit there one more time !

Kats

Edited March 23, 2022 by kats

[HS30-H]

4 hours ago, Gav240z said:

Write an email to Carl Beck and ask him to post it on Zhome.com

Judging on past performance, if it *did* get added to Zhome.com it would probably have a heavy amount of spin added to it - whether intentional or unintentional - to support a natural bias that is at once both unscientific and unscholarly.   

But the real tragedy of Zhome.com is that it amounts to 'Friendly Fire'. I still don't really understand why the concept of the S30-series Z 'family' of variants - at concept, then through design, engineering and production, and all of them influencing each other in one way or another - is so controversial, let alone abhorrent? This is not some kind of 'woke' re-writing of history, it is documented and demonstrable fact from the very top.

But then, this is the mindset:
 

Quote

Everything about the history of the Z Car seems to prove it was "centered" solely around the USA market

Quote

Yes, the total story of the Z would have to include a short chapter about all the various minor incarnations for nitch markets. However if you think they are "as important", "as significant" as the HLS30 - - then I have to believe you have missed the real "Story Of The Z Car".

Quote

What I said was the 240-Z was specifically designed for the US market - and every other variation was simply a side benefit to Nissan of no where near the significance in the overall scheme of things.

Quote

The Fairlady Z's are interesting and they allowed Nissan to sell a few more cars in their home market - but your assertion that they were "as important", "as significant" or evenly weighted in the design consideration of the Z - are simply - well - your opinion. However I would suggest that your opinion is not based on any real facts nor sound logic.

Quote

The real story of the Z Car - is carried by the Datsun 240-Z - as specified, as designed, as built for the American market.

...and those quotes are all from discussions on this very forum, classiczcars.com

Turtles. Turtles all the way down...

 

 

 

[RIP260Z]

Great document.

Alan, in my CSP311 development uncovering, Nissan used A###X for their project codes (though the CSP didn't get one), e.g. A250X was an engine development of a SP311 engine and A550X was the still-born Nissan 2000GT. Was this carried on into the early, what would become the S30, which we see from the document as 270KK and changed (what I am asking is did it have an A###X first), or if I remember the CSP and S30 (for example) was designed under a different design studio's within Nissan? Thus, did each design studio/team have it's own code?

Cheers

Ian