#305 on Ebay

[geezer]

Carls right about this guy. Cheap advertising. No pictures. He has a 3rd one listed now. This one had a gnose installed.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsun-Z-Series-1972-Datsun-240Z-Yellow-w-G-nose-rebuilt-motor-5sp_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6187QQihZ006QQitemZ160128939615

[Mike B]

The pictures remind me of the ad and auction for 27th. I would imagine 305 is in better shape than 27th, but by comparison for the price conversation, 27th was sold at around $2,200 and I got offers for twice that in the days following my purchase.

Notice that he is asking the same price for both #305 and #51. There are no pictures posted of #51, but assuming they are in similar condition would #50 be more valuable than #305, or are all 1969 production cars worth about the same in the same condition? I would think some of the earliest cars available to the public (like #26 and #27) could be worth more, but where would that cutoff be, after #50 or #100? Is that the case? Does month of production have any effect on value (Oct vs Nov or Dec 1969)?

[Mckrack]

This fellow is Charlie Devers selling the cars. He is well known in the Z community. He has judged cars I have heard at Z Conventions. This is my opinion and you may disagree with me. First I believe that 51 is more valuable then 305. Would you agree? Secondly I think the car unless it is beyond restoration is worth $10,000.00. The reason I say this is because to properly restore these cars to original condition it's going to cost with the car at least $40,000.00 and that is with the cost of the car. I do not agree with Mr. Beck with all due respect. These cars are becoming very very hard to find. In the end I guess it has a lot to do wiith how badly do you want a 69 car. They are becoming once in a lifetime opportunities and again if yoiu have an undying passion for 240z cars then you can get much better then a 69. OK I am waiting for the onslought of disagreements, so let me have it. I can take it.

[EScanlon]

Whether any of us would be willing to buy either of these vehicles for $10k is irrelevant.

Especially if there IS someone out there, so intent and willing to enter into the "upper echelons" of the Z collector mania (and it is one) that the money is a small ticket to pay.

If any year is considered more valuable than another, then that may be because of styling changes or other distinguishable differences. Prices in the market place ALWAYS reflect buyers preferences. That may be why some people will pay large dollars for a Series I vs. Series II or other styling change.

However, when people DO in fact compare VIN numbers as "the lower the better", then these cars ARE some of the LAST of the "Below 500" club. There are better examples out there of that club, but they would only BENEFIT from these poor examples being sold for that amount and higher.

The only people who would conceivably see this as bad, would be people who just committed to SELL a GOOD example for less molney than these poor example prices and hence will lose out on the potentially higher $.

FWIW

E

[geezer]

Mckrack - You won't get any disagreement from me, other than I think both cars will sell for much less in the end. There are still '69 cars out there in need of a complete restoration. In a few years you won't be able to restore one for $40,000. The parts needed to do it right will skyrocket and it will take many years just to find them all. As far as value for #51 and #305, here's my take. I know nothing about either of these cars, but for example lets say they both need about the same dollar amount of parts to complete. The cost to bring the shells back to their former glory will be about the same for each, no matter if one appears much worse than the other. Just ask anyone what had to be replaced on one that looked "not too bad" or one that it was obvious extensive work was needed. In the end most of the same body parts will be replaced on both cars. That only leaves the number. Any collector will expect to pay a premium for a lower number. My hat is off to anyone who takes on the challenge, because in my opinion it is not an easy thing to do. It takes an especially dedicated individual to preserve a small piece of history.

[dkd021]

Mckrack - In a few years you won't be able to restore one for $40,000. The parts needed to do it right will skyrocket and it will take many years just to find them all.

Unless you're a wizard when it comes to sheetmetal & all other body work/paint, I don't think you can restore (in the truest sense of the word) a car in that condition for under $40k today. It's taken me since early 2002 to find all of the parts I wanted with lots of trading, bartering, whatever it took in between.

[texasz]

They are becoming once in a lifetime opportunities

Not hardly! #27 just sold what was it 2 years ago I believe...now we have #51 and #305. There have been a couple others over the past few years as well. This is hardly a once in a lifetime occurance. Rare yes, once in a lifetime NO!

[bigoak]

And how about this one...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Datsun-Z-Series-260z-Datsun-Z-Vin-000009-Bob-Bondurant-24-hour-of-Daytona_W0QQitemZ220122815093QQihZ012QQcategoryZ6187QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Admittedly not ever going to be a candidate for concours restoration...but man could you have fun showing up a vintages track days with this puppy cleaned up...

[Mckrack]

I suppose this is more fact then debate. Regarding a once in a lifetime opportunity it does depend on the buyer of course. Eventually if we live long enough and the vehicles live long enough there will be another 69 car available. Restoring these series one cars especially 69 cars is possible and if you work hard and you are patient you can find almost everything to fulfill the restoration. Yes there are some parts that are almost impossible to find but with some inginuity it can be done. I guess it depends on our indivudual perceptions on what a restored car is. How many times have we seen ads for cars that state restored and they are so far from the true sense of the word that it's absurd. I still believe that a VIN of 51 is worth $10,000.00. It's just a piece of valuable history, again if you believe that the Datsun 240z was what many of us think it was and still is. You know in this world we live in today it's truly a matter of supply and demand and the supply is dwindling. One last comment and one last question please. The comment is that I think the purchase of the car is a one shot deal and there is probably not a 69 car out there for sale at this time that doesn't need restoration and a pretty significant one. The question is how much do you think we would have to pay for a completely restored 1969 Datsun 240z with a VIN of 51. I say these days maybe close to $50,000 or more. That is a completely dead nuts beautifully restored car. Please don't compare it to one of the Vintage Z program cars( which were not very good examples of what might be considered a meticulous rendering of a restored car ) or any other completely restored car above the manufacture date of 1969.

[26th-Z]

I don't know if this is general knowledge in the Z community, but 17th just traded and she is headed my way for a bath in the great revivation spas of Wauchula, Florida. Her Majesty heard that she was involved in some escort service in Chicago and was pretty ragged out. She was evidently bought and paid for by some wealthy Southern gentleman who is going to fix all her imperfections of age and return her to her glorious beauty. That makes three of these low VINs recently trading.

Greetings Enrique and Ron! I liked your comments. I would agree with an expression like "once in a lifetime" dependent on the perspective as Enrique pointed out. The car is only worth (ever) what someone is willing to pay for it. Will these cars be worth $50,000? I hope so. I think that when we are talking about spending $40,000 on restoring a car like this, it depends on how it is being restored. I think that sum includes hiring someone to do the work. I don't think I'm going to have that much money in my cars. I know 26th will be less, but I'm doing a lot of the work.

"Restoration" does not necessarily mean "parts replacement". We have been fortunate to see authentic original parts circulating in the past few years and it is true that this source is drying up. However, restoration does include the concept of restoring the original part. Much controversy exists in the restoration world about what is referred to as "original patina". Then there is the concept of remanufacturing an original part.

What I see fighting the market for value in the low VIN models is the sheer number of examples. I am amazed that these cars even exist and are still being found...much less restored. What has me slightly concerned is the idea that these cars are not so rare and how many of them are being restored.

[Carl Beck]

I still believe that a VIN of 51 is worth $10,000.00.

The Subject of this thread started with #305. I said #305 would not get a bid starting at $10K. I also said it's market value in California, in the condition it is show in would be $2,500.00 to $3,500.00. So I am not sure that you are disagreeing with me, or changing the subject to a second car...??

There is a significant difference between VIN 51 and VIN 305 in terms of how many other people will own lower VIN's, in the Low VIN Club. Excluding for now #6, 7 and 8.... the competition cars not sold to the public. If you own #305 there are at least 80 other people with lower VIN's. If you own #51 there are only 17 other people with lower VIN's that have been located so far.

If you want to be in the second most exclusive group of 69 Z owners, you have to be in the "Teen Z Club" - find #00018 and you will be one of four in that group. Of course if you want to be in the most exclusive group of 69 Z owners you have to own #6, #7 or #8..... and you will be one of the three "Single Digit Z" owners - in which case you have the right to hold a single digit to everyone else in the club... The single digit held up denotes both the fact that you have a VIN with a single significant digit - or "1" denoting the $100,000.00+ you have to pay to get it.

The question is how much do you think we would have to pay for a completely restored 1969 Datsun 240z with a VIN of 51. I say these days maybe close to $50,000 or more. That is a completely dead nuts beautifully restored car.

There are really two components related to value in your question or statement. The first component is the value of a completely restored Series I 240-Z. The second is the additional value of the VIN itself.

In the past twelve months, I have arranged the sale of six or seven Concours Quality Restorations done on Series I 240-Z's. They all sold for between $25K and $35K. Two of them were 1969 Production Year cars with VIN's between 100 and 200. With these cars, buyers and sellers... I'm not sure it's possible to break out the value of the VIN - but I am sure it was far easier to find buyers quickly for the 69 production cars. I'm also sure that over time, the few 69 production cars that have been restored will command on average higher prices than the rest of the Series I cars.

Please don't compare it to one of the Vintage Z program cars( which were not very good examples of what might be considered a meticulous rendering of a restored car ) or any other completely restored car above the manufacture date of 1969.

Given the fact that only 38 Vintage Z's were completed; and the Vintage Z's additional significant place in the History of the Z Car, I believe that they will be the real price leaders in the Collector Z Car Community. At present 143 1969 production year 240-Z's have been found.... and there is no way of telling how many of them have been or will be fully restored, but chances are good that it will be far more than 38 over time.

If the Collector Car market stays as strong as it is now - I believe we could see the Vintage Z's or perhaps some Concours Quality Series I Z's selling for $50K within the next five to seven years.

just my take on the market..

Carl B.

[Blue Meanie]

Maybe he could throw in a little of what he was smoking in the hatch to sweeten the deal?