Fiberglass Headlight Buckets

[Mr Camouflage]

Knowing Alan, straight from the horses mouth, most likely.

FRP, Fibreglass - same thing.

Carl, how did corvettes get away with having fiibreglass front ends then?

[HS30-H]

Very detailed. Where did you glean such information?

Well, I have had the great privilege of spending some time ( a few times, actually ) with Mr Yoshihiko Matsuo. He has a great number of such stories to tell.

I think it was Hiroo Miyate who had the brainwave on the station platform. Miyate was one of Matsuo's colleagues on the S30-series Z design team, and his input - along with the other key members - was very important.

The story has been recounted several times in magazine articles over the last few years - probably because it makes a nice little vignette, and the 'brainwave on the platform' illustrates that this ( young! ) design team had put their hearts and souls into the design, and were totally immersed in what they were doing. They hardly ever switched off.

There's a very interesting interview with Matsuo san in the June 2007 edition ( Volume 121 ) of Nostalgic Hero magazine, where he recounts some more interesting tales surrounding the design of the S30-series Z. Some of the photos used to illustrate the article are from Matsuo's own personal archive. Fascinating stuff.

Alan T.

[beandip]

Optional uses for the buckets at the ball game..

(Note: these were ripped from the Suncoast Z Car Club site without consent...hope I didn't offend anyone)

I thought for a min. that it was Tomo with his freeway helmet on. :stupid:

[Carl Beck]

Knowing Alan, straight from the horses mouth, most likely.

If unlike 26th Z, you were not lucky enough to have meet Mr. Matso in person so as to have him relate the story to you personally ... Then the story of how the problem of producing the headlight buckets was overcome - is outlined nicely in the book "Project X Challengers - 240-Z" by Akira Yokoyama and available from Amazon.com for around $11.00. See cover and pages below..

Chris - don't you have a drawing from your meeting with Matsuo?

FRP, Fibreglass - same thing.

For general discussion - yes. If the discussion turns more to the technical side - then it would be better to use more specific terms.

FRP - Fiber Reinforced Plastic - - - but the fiber could be stranded or chopped glass fibers, carbon fibers, woven fiberglass mats or woven carbon fiber etc etc I believe the steering wheels used actual wood fibers in the FRP...

Fiberglass - a little more limited term - in that it specifies glass fiber.

The headlight buckets were most likely chopped fiber glass in an epoxy base. Blow Molded and vacuum bagged. Once the molds are produced, it is a pretty inexpensive way to mass produce complex shapes.

Carl, how did corvettes get away with having fiibreglass front ends then?

The problem passing the MVSS 215 Bumper Standard tests wasn't with the "fiberglass" itself. Fiberglass, pound for pound absorbs and dissipates impact energy better than steel.

The Z had a steel front bumper directly in front of the fiberglass headlight bucket - the headlight bucket was supported only by the thin sheet metal of the front fender horn. When that metal fender horn was bent on impact, it took out the headlight.

Bolting the steel "U" channel at the top of the steel headlight bucket, to the fender horns - strengthened them and prevented them from bending toward the headlight.

For 1973 the Corvette's steel front bumper was eliminated altogether so it could not be pushed back into the headlights. For 1973 being all plastic with reinforcing behind it - it absorbed more of the impact energy, without transferring that energy to the headlight.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[HS30-H]

What was "wrong" with the fiberglass headlight buckets, was that they would not meet the US Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (MVSS) related to frontal impact at 10 mph for the 1973 Model Year here in the US.

If unlike 26th Z, you were not lucky enough to have meet Mr. Matso in person so as to have him relate the story to you personally ... Then the story of how the problem of producing the headlight buckets was overcome - is outlined nicely in the book "Project X Challengers - 240-Z" by Akira Yokoyama and available from Amazon.com for around $11.00.

So whereabouts in the "Project X Challengers" book is the story of the headlight buckets being changed from FRP to steel solely to satisfy US MVSS laws for the "1973 Model Year"?

I only have the ( original ) Japanese edition - which does not mention US MVSS in relation to the headlamp buckets.

Yokoyama wrote a nicely softened-up and simplified ( 'Katayama' version ) of events, but I still don't see anything but purely practical reasons for the ( temporary ) use of FRP for the headlamp buckets until the press tooling and jigs for the two-part steel versions could be perfected.

[26th-Z]

I don't know, but I this conversation is beginning to sound like an historical conversation some time in the future about the invention of the cell phone attributed to 1930's **** Tracy two-way wrist radios. Call me a snob, but I'm having a hard time relating to a comic book as historical documentation. Enough said.

I did have the pleasure of meeting and taking with Yoshihiko Matsuo in Long Beach at the ZCCA convention in 2004. Very interesting guy and I relate to him very well as a designer for that is my profession also. Designers talk with drawings and use whatever media is available at the moment. Here are some sketches on the back of an envelope concerning the hidden hinge for the rear hatch and the hatch strut which I was told was adapted from the French Mirage fighter jet. Years later, Matsuo san visited London on his way to the Frankfurt Auto Show (as I recall) and met with Alan and Len. Len sent me scans of their conversation which include this drawing of the headlight housing fender extension. I have a bunch of other sketches, photographs of the prototype and notes from Matsuo san. Kats gives me odd and ends to keep for my collection of stuff only a designer would appreciate. I guess in that respect you might delight in my collection of Paul Rudolf, Victor Lundy, Edgar Tafel drawings. I have some Frank Lloyd Wright originals as well, although I never met the man.

I do not believe the fibers in FRP are glass. No, FRP is not equal to fiberglass. I DO know that the material and manufacturing technique is attributed to Finnish architect / designer Eero Saarinen. Look him up on the internet – post World War II furniture design and manufacture. Saarinen is famous for the Knoll Furniture “tulip” design.

[HS30-H]

Call me a snob, but I'm having a hard time relating to a comic book as historical documentation.

Yes. Me too.

Years later, Matsuo san visited London on his way to the Frankfurt Auto Show (as I recall) and met with Alan and Len.

"Years later"? Are we playing S30-series Z Chief Designer Top Trumps here?

I think I first met Matsuo san seven years ago - at one of the NISMO Festivals at Fuji Speedway - and then again at one of the Club S30 / S30 Owners Club meets at Sagamiko, where he did a mini talk-through of some design points on the S30-series Z ( using Takeuchi san's 432-R as his guinea pig ) which was fascinating.

When he visited the UK on his way to Frankfurt, I was able to spend quite a bit longer with him - giving me the chance to ask him some questions that were of particular interest to me.

Of course I'm not an architect, so I could have misunderstood some of what he was saying.........

[HS30-H]

Len sent me scans of their conversation which include this drawing of the headlight housing fender extension.

As a matter of fact, Matsuo san sketched that front end side-view during a conversation I initiated with him regarding the ZG. His notation of 'L' on the sketch meaning 'Long' nose Z. We were discussing headlamp covers and ther details of the front ends. He was - and is - very proud of the styling of the ZG.

'Kotobuki' also made the FRP parts for the factory ZG, by the way..........

Just out of interest, I believe we first discussed Kotobuki and the headlamp bucket manufacturing on this thread, back in 2004:

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15711

Alan T.

[26th-Z]

Years later, months later, decades later...I don't know, Alan. It's all a blur to me.

[WizardBlack]

Knowing Alan, straight from the horses mouth, most likely.

FRP, Fibreglass - same thing.

Carl, how did corvettes get away with having fiibreglass front ends then?

Sorry to correct you but FRP is not the same thing as fiberglass. Fiberglass is glass fibers suspended in a resin (acrylic?). FRP is fiberglass reinforced plastic. Instead of the two component thermoset resin, you have thermoelastic plastic. In other words, you can MELT FRP's primary constituent but you can't melt fiberglass. FRP is a newer tech than fiberglass.