ZG Production Figures

[Tony D]

Don't want to open the 'production-vs-sales' can of worms again, but I have need of some figures relating to ZG-Specific Production Data.

We run a vehicle at Bonneville for Land Speed Records. Our entry has been protested citing a production figure of '482' ZG units produced. I have no idea where this die-hard Ford/Chevy Fenatic got his numbers, but he's posted the $100 protest fee, and effectively blocked us from Competing at the Speed Week Competition in August by this tactic.

What I am looking for, is any documentation regarding the ZG option being produced.

I am also interested in any JDM (or other country for that matter) sales brochures that show the ZG Nose as a option available on ANY other Z-Model.

What this guys contends is that the ZG Nose is merely a 'Racing Part Option' same as the IMSA Bodywork available for Chevy Monzas and Ford Pintos of similar vintage---they had part numbers, and were available through parts distribution, but were not a 'real production item'...

I have mentioned that you could buy a ZG off the showroom floor, and at least till 1972, in the USA you could get it as a Dealer-Added Option through Nissan Motorsports.

In the meantime, we will probably have to pull our G-Nose off and run that way till the protest is adjudicated....but this tactic bothers me since I know it was a specific model available at any delership in Japan. I just need proof that at least 500 were sold through the available production run.

Anybody know if the ZG nose was available as a factory option alone on run-of-the-mill JDM S30's after the shift to the later light/body style of the 260Z?

I need to cover all the bases and blow the guy out of the water now, and not keep getting protested and blocked from competiton due to sour grapes.

I mean, the guy has a Cosworth Four Valve head on his engine...and he's upset by our G-Nose!

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Carl Beck]

Hi Tony D.

Having been a New Car Sales Manager at a Datsun Dealership in 72/73 I can tell you that the "G" nose was offered by the Datsun Competition Parts Dept, and was available "Over-The-Counter" at your local Datsun Dealer's Parts Department.

However it was never a Dealer Installed Option. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) forbade Manufacturers or their authorized Dealers from removing or altering in any way - any of the equipment mandated by Federal Law. That of course included the front impact tested bumper for 1972 as well as the entire front assembly for the stricter still 73 standards.

So it looks like you will have to base your case on some type of documentation from Japan. Alan may have found something "official" that you can use.

good luck,

Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

Oh.. just remembered... How about the FIA Approval for the G-Nose? I think, but I'm not certain that the parts had to be regular production parts or offered on at lease some number of cars build by the factory - 500 maybe?

maybe this will help...

Carl B.

[gnosez]

Tony - I sure hope Alan can help you on this as I'd hate for you and your team to be treated this way after all your hard work.

As a semi-ZG owner let me know what I can do (re:kneecapping).....

[HS30-H]

Our entry has been protested citing a production figure of '482' ZG units produced. I have no idea where this die-hard Ford/Chevy Fenatic got his numbers, but he's posted the $100 protest fee, and effectively blocked us from Competing at the Speed Week Competition in August by this tactic.

Tony,

I have no idea where this guy came up with the figure of '482' either. I suspect that he might be confusing the 'HS30-H' model 'Fairlady 240ZG' with the 'PS30' and 'PS30-SB' model 'Fairlady Z432' and 'Fairlady Z432-R'. Even then his figures would be based on disputed evidence.........

What I am looking for, is any documentation regarding the ZG option being produced.

If I were you, I would stake all my chips on the FIA homologation amendment that legalised the factory G-nose for Group 4 competition use. The mere existence of this amendment page proves ( as far as the FIA were concerned ) that over 500 identical cars had been series-produced and were meant for sale to the general public. He can't argue with that.

Amendment 9/8V to FIA homologation number 3023 proves that Nissan had complied with Article 251, Category A, Group 4 ( Special Touring Cars section ) of the International Sporting Code, Appendix "J", and had produced the quantity of 500 cars necessary within the time allowed. In the case of Group 4 during the period concerned, this was 24 consecutive months or less.

The guys who protested you, and your sanctioning body, can't argue with this if they recognise and adhere to FIA rules. The amendment 9/8V was valid from 1st October 1973, and was retrospectively applied from a start date of August 1972. Factory 'HS30-H' 'Fairlady 240ZG' models were sold to the general public in Japan from late October 1971 through to the end of 1973.

I don't believe I have ever seen an official factory-related document that conclusively states the quantities of Fairlady 240ZG models sold - but I have been told by numerous sources over the years ( and many of them ex-Nissan employees ) that just over 1000 were made. This would have made the G-Nose parts eligible for Group 2 ( over 1000 made ) but the factory never bothered with the necessary amendment to the homologation as it would have been pointless.

I have in the past been called upon to 'prove' certain things to my insurance company here in the UK with regard to my factory Fairlady 240ZG. I carried out a lot of background research into the model, and had to present it to them as part of an 'agreed value' policy. The car is the only known genuine factory-built 'HS30-H' model in Europe - so it can be troublesome to insure properly.

I've made sworn affidavits for presentation to RAC MSA and FIA competition scrutineers in the past, and would be happy to prepare one for you if you think it would help your situation. I can provide copies of all the necessary FIA regulation paragraphs and factory-sourced photos and data to support it. But to be honest, that single page ( amendment 9/8V to homologation number 3023 ) is all you should need.

The ZG parts were available from the 'Sports Option' lists in Japan right up until Nissan's competitions departments ( 'Nissan Sports' / 'Nissan Sport Service' et al ) were merged to form NISMO in 1982. From then on, the parts continued to be available from NISMO until at least the mid-Nineties. They were NOT offered as a true 'Factory Option' to be specified on a new car - but one of the authorised 'Nissan Sport Service' dealers in Japan ( there were 17 of these by mid 1973 ) could supply and fit the parts should the Japanese customer wish. This would however have had implications for him on taxation class and other bureacracy that was open to interpretation ( especially by troublesome traffic police officers, apparently! ) so I don't think this will be all that useful to you in your current situation.

Let me know what you need.

Cheers,

Alan T.

[Tony D]

I've got the Group 4 Homogolation papers, I will review those sections in preparation for the argument. The Group 2 information was a good update, I'd not heard that., and that is good to know!

Given that Nissan had to use something to prove it was a 'factory option' when the had the car classified in 1975 for SCTA-BNI Competition---I suspect the FIA papers would qualify for that purpose.

I suspect they are contending the G-Nose never was available for the 2+2 as well. But I think the logical argument there is the swapping that occurs between Domestics in competition all the time. They have previously allowed Shaker Hoods on vehicles not originally equipped with them, but on models that are 'cloned' from another division of the same overall manufacturer.

The next protest is that it was never available on "280Z's" but the obvious production run of S30 in the Japanese Market should quash that contention.

We are still in the 'prospecting stages' of what the actual protest involves---all that will be written in due time I suppose, but it puts a big pall over going to Bonneville---especially with the spectre of having a real record run negated after a protest (which is what happened several years ago when we broke a "Fuel" record running only Gasoline...The rules stated 'fuel is open' so we chose to run standard gasoline, and broke the record by 14mph...the former record holder protested us and it was upheld as the rules were vague. Of course they changed them the next year to ALLOW the use of 'any fuel'...politics...)

The base of it all is that this joker has been running in the 130 to 136mph range for the past three years against a record at 141.824 mph. Our first run was 141.336 (close to the record, but being on a rookie pass, was ineligible for the record in any case!), then subsequently in the high 140 ranges, all within 3% of the record... We're just waiting for the cooler weather in September/October/November like our rookie run last November...

Your suspicions were along the same lines as mine, Alan: 482? Got to be some Wikipedia Search that shows that number someplace. I don't know WHERE he came up with it. Though for only $100 he can screw us up for a while jumping through hoops while our car is 'in limbo'... We actually went out Sunday and told the driver to just make an easy pass so we keep our points and run placement for later in the year. If we come in slower than they do, maybe they won't feel so intimidated.

I'm so irate at this point, I'm willing to take the nose off and spank them just for spite!

[Tony D]

<EDIT>I've confirmed that I do have the 3023-70 9/8V Supplement Pages. They deal with the "Aerodyna-Nose Model" I assume the verbiage for the 500 units is contained within the actual FIA Supplement J as noted---I take that the section has changed by now, and doesn't read the same...any archival documents available for e-transfer on that point would be greatly appreciated!

[Tony D]

SCTA Rule 4.E Automobile Production. Any component which is offered for sale by a recognized automotive manufacturer to the general public as original equipment or accessory to a production automobile is considered automotive production. A production rate of at least 500 vehiclesof the same model and year is considered to meet the requirement of a production automobile.

SCTA Rule 5.E Production Category

This category is intended to represent typical transportation vehicles, which may be purchased from ANY automobile dealer. A production rate of at least 500 vehicles of the same model and available from dealers inventory for sale to the general public is considered to meet the requirement of a production automobile. In keeping with this intent, the cars are aerodynamically "stone stock" with no body parts allowed which were not parts of the manufacturer's production for the series of the vehicles involved.

The engine used must have been available in the model of the vehicle used as purchased form ANY automobile dealer. modified body, body panels, spoilers, air dams, etc intended for and as accepted or sanctioned by NASCAR, NHRA, SCCA, etc are not permitted for use in this category unless specifically allowed. A manufacturer's part number does not necessarily imply that a part is an original, factory installed body part. Both interior and exterior panels are considered to be part of a production vehicle and must be mounted in their original relationship to each other.

The S30 did have more than 500 produced in any given year, and the accessory of the G-Nose was also produced in those numbers acording to the FIA Documentation....

Since they clearly refer to "The Series" this means to me what is legal for an S30 from 1972 is legal for an S30 of 1976. And a Classifier like "GS" or "RS" does not change the fact that it is still the same series...

What the guy is PO&B about is the fact that his IMSA stuff is specifically disallowed, and he thinks the G-Nose is the same thing---well you could never go to a dealer and buy a Monza or Pinto with the IMSA Spec flares. And we are not trying to use Group 4 Flares at all....jsut the plain old G-Nose as it came from the factory....

At least we have that going for us, it's pretty clear it DID come on cars to the general public. I'm feeling better now that I've reviewed the rules more, and gotten this feedback today!

[Mr Camouflage]

I dont know if this is any help

It's from the USA Nissan Competition parts book cira 1984.

[HS30-H]

<EDIT>I've confirmed that I do have the 3023-70 9/8V Supplement Pages. They deal with the "Aerodyna-Nose Model" I assume the verbiage for the 500 units is contained within the actual FIA Supplement J as noted---I take that the section has changed by now, and doesn't read the same...any archival documents available for e-transfer on that point would be greatly appreciated!

Yes, I'll scan the pages from the appropriate year's FIA year book and send them direct to you via e-mail. Got some other stuff to back it up with too.

I suggest taking most of this discussion offline from here on in. Let's not allow your 'enemy' to get a look through any hole in the fence.........

What's that old racing proverb? Something like ".....The REAL racing starts when the rule book is printed." :classic:

Alan T.

[Carl Beck]

Hi Tony D

I just wondered if you had followed the Wind Tunnel Testing done by the HybridZ group a few months ago? If so, how do you account for the G-Nose producing both more lift and drag at 120mph, than the stock 240-Z?

Would the outcome be altered because of the longer 2+2 roof line and wheel base?

FWIW,

Carl B.

[HS30-H]

I just wondered if you had followed the Wind Tunnel Testing done by the HybridZ group a few months ago? If so, how do you account for the G-Nose producing both more lift and drag at 120mph, than the stock 240-Z?

Carl,

They didn't test a proper factory-type G-Nose, did they?

Do you honestly believe that Nissan ( and everybody else ) would have used the parts on their Group 4 cars if they were detrimental to aero performance over the 'standard' S30-series Z front end treatment?

Alan T.