Is this Z worth $45,000

[AndysPlit]

Wow. Where and when would someone be able to be honored with this award? West Coast Nationals, or something like that?

What's the criteria?

[ZWOLF]

Not to be an asshole, but how do you win best of show with a half inch gap between your air dam and your fender.

Pretty easy actually.

It's called FRIENDS.

The West Coast National's is a "Peoples Choice" show.

[Carl Beck]

Hi Guys:

Thanks Will - your answers are right on the mark - sorry I didn't get back to this sooner.

I'll add a little more to 26th-Z's comments re the Gold Medallion Award.

The ZCCA's Gold Medallion Award is given to Z's judged by Z Knowledgeable Judges, at the Z Car Club Association's Annual Convention. The cars are judged to a known, and documented set of criteria that anyone can get a copy of. Once a Z is awarded the ZCCA's Gold Medallion it is no longer allowed to be entered into ZCCA Judged Car Shows for competition, and rather is put on "DISPLAY" at future shows. (this was intended to prevent three or four cars from winning First Place Trophies in the Stock Class year after year).

If you buy a Gold Medallion Z - you have at least some confirmation by knowledgeable judges, that the car is as close to being a #1 Condition car as their judging criteria allow. There are however limits that have to be considered in this case. That being that the ZCCA Judging Criteria do not include judging anything under the car (unless that has been changed????).

I'd have to agree with Chris - that right now it is the highest award given out to a Z Car. However in the future, as the Classic Z Cars are invited to ever more and more top level Concours Events around the Country - the prestige of having a Concours Winner from a Nationally Recognized Event may surpass the ZCCA's award.

Many of us, myself included, feel that it's time to see DATSUN 240-Z's on display side by side with all other Classic Sports/GT's at the finest Concours Events in the Country .... Ferrari, Porsche, M/B, Shelby Cobra's, Aston Martin etc. From the perspective of Classic Beauty, Performance, and Driving Pleasure - the 240-Z is right up there with the rest.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[AndysPlit]

So how many Gold Medallion Z's are out there? Does it only apply to the 240?

[hls30.com]

Gold Medallions are given when earned to The top entries in the stock class in any model Z that is at least 10 years out from its date of manufacture-a 350Z has a wait to be included. A gold medallion owner has achieved the ultimate in Z restoration/upkeep. Making a Modified class winner is a noteworthy accomplishment, but with the number of NLA parts to to round up/restore, and the accumulation of details required to keep an original car original or properly restore a non-original car, it is more difficult than creating something new-that is not to discount the modified cars at all-I'm building one! It is to say an all original Z is more difficult to keep than a modified one-even before the cars are 35 or more years old.

I agree that it is time to see 240Z in with its direct period competition-at shows-I can't imagine that the show Car Crazy hasn't covered a ZCCA event.

I also agree that a set of three impartial and well versed judges can make a much better evaluation of a car than a popularity contest ever will. That isn't to say I wouldn't enjoy participation!

Will

[HS30-H]

IMO the highest award one can be granted for their Z car. I can't think of a higher award.

......... In the USA.

I'd have to agree with Chris - that right now it is the highest award given out to a Z Car.

......... In the USA.

A gold medallion owner has achieved the ultimate in Z restoration/upkeep.

.......... In the USA.

Gentlemen,

Just a little reminder that this is ( supposedly ) an international forum, dedicated to the subject of a Japanese car.

Thank you!

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

Any of the Factory Works Pro Rally 240-Z's($100K +)

Any of the Fairlady Z 432's ($75K to $125K)

Any of the Bob Sharp Championship Z's ($150K+)

Any of the BRE Z's

Brad Frissells' C-Production Championship Z(asking $275K -sold but not

known what the final price was).

Mr. K's personal Zs

Carl,

That's a bit of a strange list to my eyes.

I don't know what data you used to set that price range ( $100K + ) for the Works rally 240Zs ( I noticed you didn't include any Works 260Zs? ) as I am not aware of any that have come onto the open market in the last ten years or more - although a couple have changed hands privately.

Surely you can't put a Works-built ( and therefore fundamentally different to a modified standard road bodyshell ) rally car of international significance - such as the 1971 and 1973 East African Safari Rally winners - into the same price bracket as others?

It's something of a moot point, as Nissan surely have no intention of selling their Safari-winning 240Zs, but I think an insurance valuation alone would show that those cars would most likely top any list you care to make. Even Nissan's ex-Aaltonen '72 Monte Carlo Rallye third place finisher would be right up there, without even having won a race. There are other ex-Works cars in captivity, but they really have to be judged on a case-by-case basis. There was a very large variation in build detail depending on the season they were built in, and what event they were aimed at.

I noticed too that you quoted a price range of "$75K to "$125K" for "any of the Fairlady Z 432s" - which is also a bit out of focus. For many years now, it has been the much rarer Fairlady Z432R models that have been leading the way as far as high sale prices are concerned. With a fundamentally different bodyshell to the 'ordinary' Z432 model, it is hard to lump the 'PZR' model in with its 'PZ' sister. And $125K US is only going to net you a 432R restoration project these days. It might not be enough to buy a really nice 432 either, as prices are on a steep upward curve. Even original factory 240ZGs are starting to command pretty serious money in Japan these days.

Alan T.

[26th-Z]

Interesting couple of comments Alan! I'm glad to hear from you, as always. You have that international connection we Americans miss and I would love to know of a Z oriented organization of the magnitude, experience, and structure that equitably compares to the Z Car Club Association. The ZCCA has published judging documentation, class structure for the different models, trained judges, a judge training program, a computerized scoring system and a history spanning twenty years. Perhaps a bit myopic to the American market. What Z organization outside the US offers something comparable?

Would you not consider a Bonhams auction in England "for sale on the open market"? Granted, we could argue the validity of the Works cars that were offered a year or so ago. Surely, you must remember them.

[HS30-H]

Interesting couple of comments Alan! I'm glad to hear from you, as always. You have that international connection we Americans miss and I would love to know of a Z oriented organization of the magnitude, experience, and structure that equitably compares to the Z Car Club Association. The ZCCA has published judging documentation, class structure for the different models, trained judges, a judge training program, a computerized scoring system and a history spanning twenty years. Perhaps a bit myopic to the American market. What Z organization outside the US offers something comparable?

Ha! I knew you'd reply with that. Fair enough.

But just because the ZCCA is 'the only game in town' so to speak should not imply that it is a defining authority for the whole world. I've asked the question before ( admittedly rhetorical, as I know the answer ); would these 'trained' ZCCA judges be able to judge market models other than those they are most familiar with? If Kats brought over his 432, would the judges know what was correct and what was not? How about if I brought over my 240ZG? How about if Len Welch brought his UK-market 240Z over?

I'm not saying that these cars would be contenders ( although Kats' car might well be ), but my point is could these cars be judged to the same level of expertise and accuracy as the USA/Canada market models? Somehow I think not. I'm not denigrating the ZCCA in any way ( I'm sure that they have excellent standards and high expertise ) - just trying to get this into some kind of WORLD perspective. Do you get the point? I'm not trying to be a thorn in anyone's side here. I'm just trying to ask that we be mindful of the terms that we use, and their implications.

IDEALLY, I'd like to see the people who designed and made these cars judging them - but sadly that isn't going to happen, is it?

Would you not consider a Bonhams auction in England "for sale on the open market"? Granted, we could argue the validity of the Works cars that were offered a year or so ago. Surely, you must remember them.

Yes, I remember the Bonhams auction very well ( I was there ).

There were NO ex-Works 240Z rally cars at that auction. Some random ex-Works parts attached to standard road car bodyshells, yes - but no proper, correct, historic ex-Works cars. That's it in a nutshell.

Alan T.

[26th-Z]

Smile on my face. You make an excellent point. No, the ZCCA would fall short of "qualified" people to properly "evaluate" world market and Japanese cars. Furthermore, the ZCCA point of view is quite "enthusiast" oriented allowing people of all ranges to compete in car shows on an equal basis. The foundation of the judging criteria is asthetic focusing on "fit, finish, and cleanliness". The examples you describe, Alan, would most successfully fall into the modified class structure as it would be difficult for anyone to evaluate a "stock" Japanese car (for example) "as it left the factory". We know fairly well how the American imports left the factory, but as you point out, other export versions and home market cars are not well documented.

[hls30.com]

Alan,

I posed parallel questions (something to the collective effect of "how would non-USA parts on a USA version S30 be judged?") in a thread six months ago, and got a collective "Laugh-In" reply "Hmmm, verry interesting?" accompanied by tweaking if the chin...

It is difficult to call on experience, and knowledge that is not made available.

I had hoped that some of our esteemed and well-versed members from other Z-blessed parts of the world would make it to the convention and participate in sharing that information. Kats has placed a good bit of compare and contrast information on the 432 and the HLS30 on his website, and you have thrown several diamonds in as well. Only four of our overseas members have tossed any documentation(or copies thereof) into the Club DVD project I am working on, and with that there are three pieces I can't get a release to use in the project ( PDF copies of the Japanese/english S30 and SRl/SPL manuals, a copy of the current Australian version of FAST, and a copy of a Japanese competition parts book). It is not my intention to be rude, but in my view, it is easy to point out what was or was not done and far more helpful to actually contribute to getting the situation changed.

Keeping the knowledge of that part of the Z family on that side of the pond is like my Father seldom talking about and never interacting with his family and then being upset when I don't recognize my uncle. If you are going to ask why don't we, and tell us we should, don't be surprised when we ask you to participate in correcting the situation-if it is worth your time to comment, it should be worth your time to help correct. I have a big project for the benefit of the club-and the hobby-four members outside of the USA have contributed.

Will

PS, Carl, your car has the best chance for some of the highend history shows( http://www.ameliaconcours.org/criteria/criteria.asp ) but to get our cars in with the others, they first have to be entered, and or parked at the shows...

Will

[HS30-H]

Alan,

I posed parallel questions (something to the collective effect of "how would non-USA parts on a USA version S30 be judged?") in a thread six months ago, and got a collective "Laugh-In" reply "Hmmm, verry interesting?" accompanied by tweaking if the chin...

I thought it would be more likely to be "........Here come the Judge!"

Surely they would be looking for a car that was being judged to have the correct type of parts and equipment for that market model ( ie - as it left the factory ) if they are judging a 'Stock' class? Sure there are a multitude of parts that were shared by all models in all markets that were built around the same period, but if a USA market HLS30U is fitted with something like - for example - a UK market distributor, then surely it is up to the judges to pick up on it and the owner to explain it?

I suspect your question would have been too close to a 'How Long Is a Piece Of String' to answer.

It is difficult to call on experience, and knowledge that is not made available. I had hoped that some of our esteemed and well-versed members from other Z-blessed parts of the world would make it to the convention and participate in sharing that information.

You see, to me your above comment strikes right to the heart of what I'm talking about. I don't see why anyone would necessarily feel under any obligation to travel halfway around the world to "share" any information on cars and specifications that are not even present. You are familiar with the idea of 'The mountain going to Mohammed' I take it?

Frankly, I think if an organisation wants to promote itself as some kind of world authority on a subject then it had better open its eyes to the whole story of that subject, rather than just one part of it. Some very significant members of said organisation are happy to tell people that certain models of the S30-series Z family are "irrelevant", or indeed that it is unnecessary to think of the S30-series Z as a family of models made for different markets and market sectors. Quite a fundamental problem I would say.

Of course, if the ZCCA judging panel wasn't implied to be the single, all powerful, all-wise and all-seeing body of the world ( see the three posts that I objected to in just this thread ) then it would not be an issue, and "assholes" like me would not need to pipe up.

Kats has placed a good bit of compare and contrast information on the 432 and the HLS30 on his website, and you have thrown several diamonds in as well. Only four of our overseas members have tossed any documentation(or copies thereof) into the Club DVD project I am working on, and with that there are three pieces I can't get a release to use in the project ( PDF copies of the Japanese/english S30 and SRl/SPL manuals, a copy of the current Australian version of FAST, and a copy of a Japanese competition parts book). It is not my intention to be rude, but in my view, it is easy to point out what was or was not done and far more helpful to actually contribute to getting the situation changed.

First of all Will, I'd remind you that I have on many occasions tried to be of help and assistance to people that needed information or data that I had access to. You yourself are one of them. I don't think I need to be reprimanded for not trying to be helpful. There's an open invitation to anyone who needs anything specific, and I will always do my best to help. But I certainly do NOT want to be sending half of a very precious, rare and hard-won collection out of my sight! There's also the question of copyright ( you are going to be selling these CDs, are you not? ) as I feel sure that a lot of what I have will not be covered by any agreement / dispensation you have obtained from Nissan in the USA.

Keeping the knowledge of that part of the Z family on that side of the pond is like my Father seldom talking about and never interacting with his family and then being upset when I don't recognize my uncle. If you are going to ask why don't we, and tell us we should, don't be surprised when we ask you to participate in correcting the situation-if it is worth your time to comment, it should be worth your time to help correct. I have a big project for the benefit of the club-and the hobby-four members outside of the USA have contributed.

Really, what has this got to do with the subject I brought up? Like I said, I haven't been backward in coming forward to try and help where anyone needed specific information that I might hold. It's not MY obligation or duty to educate ZCCA officials on market models that they do not judge, but it IS my right to point out that the ZCCA should not be held up as some kind of WORLD authority on the S30-series Z car by default.

26th-Z made a great answer to me in post #58 on this thread, and addressed the crux of my questions whilst showing some understanding of what I might be objecting to with my post #54. I think he - at least partly - 'gets' where I'm coming from. I don't see how pointing the finger at me for not lending some ( unspecified!? ) stuff to your monster CD project is actually relevant to this?

The ZCCA might like to try starting its own non-USA/Canada market model data collection if it really wants to be all-inclusive. But that's the point; I'm not so sure that ( if it could speak! ) it would actually claim to be the defining World authority on the first generation S30-series Z that some people are implying that it is ( see post #54 again ).

Alan T.