00091 for sale

[NickF]

This early Z for sale in Melbourne Trading Post

www.trading-post.com.au

[halz]

Here's the ad:

Datsun 240Z

Price $14,000

Year 1969

DATSUN 240Z 1969 Chassis No HS30/00091 Build no 91. Australian delivery 5spd man, in storage 7 yrs, fitted 260 motor, red body in GC, Excellent original black interior RWCert $14,000 (0417) 786815 Pearcedale'''

State VIC

Source Private classifieds (Melbourne Trading Post)

(search under classic/vintage on www.autotrader.com.au)

Its a pity that it doesn't have the original motor... for that sort of $$ you'd want a complete/original/concourse condition car.

[Gav240z]

In this kind of situation would the car be worth more with a L24 in it than an L26 even if it wasn't the same L24 it originally had in it??? The car seems like it would be fairly good but it's not restored just looked after I spose I'd have to see the car first

There's also a 240z with a 350 Chev in it in there for 10k I wouldn't mind seeing how that went but I prefer the L series to a Bent Eight.

[halz]

So its looked after in an average way (not restored) and does not have its original engine. Does it have the orig toolkit, books, wheels, radio, interior..? It looks like the only thing to recommend it is the low build number... and that might be more of a curse than a blessing. There were numerous 'bugs' that were ironed out betweent 1969 and 1973.

As for the 350-engined one, well you will basically be paying for a car that somone has desided to manufacture for themelves. I'm sure it goes well, but why change what the factory thought was the right design in the 1st place?

[Gav240z]

Halz I agree with you on the V8 Z It would go nice but I wouldn't want it as I said I love the L Series engine with a cam tripple carbs and extractors for extra performance.

I would like the #91 or whatever it is even if it may have a few bugs. I just like an early build number but is it #91 out of factory or #91 shipped to AUS. HS30-H or ALan would be able to shed more light on this. He seems to know a thing or 2 about build #'s etc.

I personally own a 73 but want a 69 -70 240z with the vents in the hatch not the C Pillar.

It's a 240z thing.

[zorro]

It looks like the only thing this car is being sold on is the early build date. As for my 2c I wouldn't spit on the 260 engine, with the longer conrods it doesn't rev nearly as well as the L24 and it has lost its originality if that is a word. It's body would have to be in very good condition. Do you want an early build date?

[LEE240ZPERTH]

Hi Gav

A couple of years ago I picked up an early 240, #117 having collected the car I set about trying to find when this car was produced.

As both LHD and RHD cars have the same numbers (just different prefix) I thought the engine numbers would give a more accurate picture as to the build date. I spoke with a few people heavily into Z's and the conclusion was that even the earliest known Australian 240's were probably produced from Jan 1970 on.

My current 240 #306 has an engine number that slots it in around oct/november 1970 as a build date.

Having said all this I keep hearing the story that Nissan produced approx 385 RHD cars in 1969 originally intended for the European market, these cars were imported into Australia due to lower than expected sales forecasts in Europe ( the cost of a 240z in England at the time was close to what you would pay for an E-type Jag )

I have spoken to the guy who owns the early car that is for sale, he thinks he has a Nissan document that confirms the Australian 1969 240Z claim. I will speak with him later this week when he has had chance to look for the document.

It would certainly create some debate if this document does exist!

If any other members have researched this I would be interested in you findings.

Lee

[HS30-H]

Hi Lee,

I've always kept an eye on the early RHD chassis numbers, and I've noticed that a lot of discussion on them is misinformed or just plain wrong. I'm no self-professed expert on the early LHD cars, but I do know that the story of the LHD cars is not the full story of ALL the early S30-series Z cars..............

One of the big things to note ( as you correctly pointed out ) was that the different prefix types had their own set of numbers. Therefore, all the "HLS30" prefixes are a set of numbers on their own - and they do not cross over with any of the "S30", "HS30" or "PS30" chassis numbers. Most of the information that is on the web or in English-language books on the subject just does not really get to grips with this point, and consequently people think that, for example, chassis number "HLS30-00030" was the "thirtieth Z made"..............

This is most definitely NOT the case. There were "S30" chassis numbers and "PS30" chassis numbers that would have been made either before that one or at least contemporaneously with it. Not only that, but even the factory themselves admitted that not all the cars made were correctly stamped in numerical sequence and that some numbers had been missed out ( ! ).This was particularly true with the RHD ( i.e. - non "HLS30" prefixed ) cars.

You sometimes see cars for sale ( particularly LHD versions ) where the vendor states "Thirtieth 240Z made" or somesuch claim, when the chassis number is "HLS30-00030" ( apologies to the owner of this car - I'm just using it as an example! ). In fact, all that means is that it was the thirtieth "HLS30" to be given a proper number. It would be difficult to refute this claim given the weight of anecdotal and written "evidence" to support it over the years. However, Z experts in Japan ( many of whom have first-hand knowledge of the production line and its goings-on ) would tell you that things were somewhat disorganised in those early days, and what is written on the subject is not necessarily 100% correct!

People like Carl Beck ( see his website ) have written a fair bit on this chassis number subject, and carried out a lot of research on the early "HLS30" numbers. I must say, with all due respect, that this is fairly biased ( naturally so I suppose ) in the notion that the S30-series Z was designed "for" the USA / North American market, and that somehow therefore the "first" Z cars were all "HLS30" prefixed. Carl himself would seem to believe that this was the case, and defend the belief to his dying day. He certainly poured scorn on my suggestion that this might not be the whole truth when I corresponded with him on the subject.

There is absolutely no doubt that Nissan thought it could sell an awful lot of cars to the USA / North American market, but they certainly did not design the S30-series Z as a left-hand-drive car and treat the right-hand-drive version as some kind of later addition or modification ( quite the opposite, really ). If you read up on the history of the S30-series Z car, you quite often come across mistakes that either baldly state that the USA / North American market Z cars were the "first", or they fudge the issue by not mentioning the Japanese "Home" market cars at all. So, the first thing we have to get out of the way is that ( again for example ) chassis number "HLS30-00030" is not necessarily older than either "S30-00030" or "PS30-00030". There is good reason to believe that both these RHD Japanese "Home" market cars actually predate the USA / North American market car, but proving it is another matter.

Actually, whenever I say anything like this I usually get pounced on by fervent early LHD owners who treat me like some kind of antichrist. Let's see what happens this time.......... ( tee hee ).

The BIG question is still the ".....did they produce "HS30" prefix chassis numbers in 1969 or not......." question. The aforementioned "Bible" websites / books will tell you that the answer is "no". However, there is evidence to suggest that some of the earliest "HS30" chassis numbers were made in November / December 1969, and that these never made it outside Japan. We might find that this whole discussion gets spun into a question of what was sold to the general public as being "first", rather than what the factory actually made, which is not what I am saying. It seems that at least 30 to 50 "HS30" prefixed cars may indeed have been made in November / December 1969, but that they hung around in Japan for a few months before being sent anywhere. I have never heard the story about the approx. 385 cars that you mention, Gav. I did hear about a batch of cars that ended up in Australia when in fact they were originally intended for a different RHD market, but as far as I know they turned up in Australia in 1970 ( so its difficult to prove when they were actually made ). Here in the UK, the first two cars to arrive ( pre official importation for sale to the public ) were "HS30-00034" and "HS30-00035", which it was found did not actually comply with UK vehicle Type-Approval laws. Apparently, the fact that the earliest "HS30" spec. would not comply with local laws here in the UK caused the first "batch" of official imports to be redirected ( probably to Australia - so that might have been the ones you heard about ) and subsequent shipments had to have detail changes to allow them to comply with those UK laws. This caused a bit of a panic at the factory apparently, and new front lower quarters ( with no hole for the indicator / sidelamp ) were pressed up. You can imagine this causing some weeks of delay.

I would not look at the engine numbers on L24 blocks as anything other than a rough guide; there were plenty of other Nissan models that shared the L24 block, especially in the "Home" market. They were not limited to just the L20 block out there, and there were lots of municipal and utility type vehicles that Nissan made with the L24 block. Of course it can be of use to cross-reference the numbers, but my Japanese friends tell me that a Z could end up receiving an earlier engine number than its sister car that was built after it on the production line ( more evidence of production-line chaos! ).

There is certainly some cachet or snob-value in owning an early-numbered car. The earlier the better, generally. Notwithstanding the fact that they got better over the following months. The things that people say are a drawback are easily rectified, such as the diff. mounting / driveshaft angle issue. I would say that "HS30-00091" is certainly a rare survivor as an early RHD Export model, and as such represents a good candidate to restore / preserve. As long as the structure of the body is OK, I would not worry about the engine issue. A nice early L24 block could easily be found for it, and personally I would not worry too much about the "matching numbers" thing if it belonged to me ( as long as the chassis number on the body and the VIN tag matched! ). What I cannot understand is how people can sell / buy cars on the web. Sure,it must be a good way to get the word out or to find something that is a possible candidate - but who bids high without inspecting the real thing? Beats me.

I'm putting my crash helmet on now for the expected barrage of complaint from the early-Z bible-bashers!.............

Alan T.

[Dazza]

Hi Alan,

Once again you have me enthralled with your Zed car history knowledge. I agree with what was said by another member recently, that you should put all your thoughts to print, to help us others as a source of reference.

Since aquiring my 240Z VIN HS30 00145 about five months ago, I have been earnestly trying to find out its build date. The previous owner said it was a 69 model, but everything I have been able to find out so far indicates that it was manufactured around October 1970. Looking at a register of local cars here in Brisbane, and what I can find on the net with what owners have as build dates for their cars, also seems to support it.

As you say though, there is certainly a lot of different thoughts on the subject and some very strongly held views, with not everyone agreeing.

Keep the information flowing

Cheers

Darryl

:classic:

[derk]

Mine is HS30-41000.

is that a good thing?

[HS30-H]

Hi Darryl,

Thanks for the kind words ( knew that our fellow HS30 owners wouldn't let me sink out there on my own ), but I'm still waiting for the barrage to come in from the "zhome.com" Appreciation Society.

I should think that you are probably pretty close with your build date guess at Octoberish '70 for your "HS30-00145" VIN ( you lucky sod! ). Its fairly obvious that there was a big gap in HS30 production between the turn of the decade and later in the year. I think this was most likely because of the Type Approval problems on the UK-destined cars, as well as the great surge in interest from the USA / North American market taking over most of the production space on the lines. So many people in Japan told me that they were working around the clock and doubling-up just to build enough cars to supply the huge demand from that market. Seems it quite took them by surprise. The factory were using "HS30" as well as "PS30" and "S30" prefixed cars as part of their race programme in Japan from early '70 though - so there is no doubt that some small number of "HS30" prefixed shells were made in late '69 early '70.

Personally, I think all this talk of "Series 1" and "Series 2" cars is nonsense. The factory never seemed to describe them this way, and I have only heard Z enthusiasts in Japan talking about them because they picked the habit up from English-language websites and books. The whole thing seems to be a leftover from that American "model year" thing - where a car gets updated for a its new selling season. That's the same concept as the magazines I buy fresh off the news-stand in July saying "September issue" on the cover. Its just dealer-speak. What I am interested in, and what I mean when I talk about build-date, is WHEN IT CAME OFF THE LINE.

The "HLS30" experts might like to tell people that such and such a car should have such and such a part on it, and for 99% of the time they can be right. However, they make me wonder when we can identify all sorts of anomalies and strange combinations on the RHD cars. Things that just do not fall into any kind of strictly-regimented order or plan. Stuff where the factory used different suppliers for the same basic item, or a "test" addition of a newly-modified or updated part on a car that "should" have had the previous type. Here in the UK, we have seen this particularly on the late HS30's when they started to get parts that would later be seen on the RS30. The factory started switching parts and phasing them in with seemingly no rhyme or reason.

Derk, if I were you I would have another look at the VIN on that car. If I'm not mistaken you are short of an "L", unless you have that Caelocanth of the Z world - a Left-Hand-Drive HS30......?

Happy number crunching.

Alan T.

[NickF]

How many RHDs produced with vented tail gate and choke/hand throttle??