restoration costs?

[rdefabri]

I was told that a complete, ground-up restoration to original "show" condition at Z-Car Garage in San Jose runs about $50 to 60K. Ouch!

Not unreasonable - a show quality resto on my E-Type would run EASILY $150K, I've heard stories of over $200K!!!!

I also agree with EScanlon and beandip - buying a car that's finished isn't the same as bringing one back with your own hands.

I remember about 15 years ago, after I had sold a Harley I owned so my wife and I could buy a house, I took a liking to my Dad's '67 Honda CL/77 Scrambler that had been sitting in the garage unused for over 20 years. My father scoffed at the idea of making it run, and practically refused to assist me in getting it started (I was young and aggressive, he was starting the transformation into a curmudgeon).

As I took the engine apart and replaced what was needed, and started the slow process of rebuilding it, my father would look over, even offer advice. Ultimately, by the time it was back together, we were working side by side. When we got it running, I could tell he was as proud of me as I was of getting that old bike running again. My father and I never had the strongest bond, but nothing compared to the feeling I had when I rode that bike (short of the birth of my children, but you get the idea:) ).

FWIW

[Oiluj]

On my previous car, a 1960 MGA, I rebuilt / restored "everything" myself, including the interior, engine, transmission & brake system. The only thing I didn't do was body paint. I did strip the entire car down to bare metal and painted all the smaller components. There was a tremenduos sense of accomplishment associated with that project. That's why I had the car for 17 years.

I am enjoying working on my 240Z am looking forward to driving the completed project. Doing it yourself is the best way to really get to "know" the car.

The parts I'm not doing myself on the Z are the engine, seat upholstery & paint. Those are things, (paint & sewing), I'm not as good at and will get a better result by giving it to the pros. While I've rebuilt several engines, having someone else do the work fits my timeline. I want to be driving the car by mid-September. Of course, I'm saving money by doing a lot of the prep work...

[Zak's Z]

Hey, these are really inspirational stories guys. I don't care if its -12c in my garage, tonight my son and I are putting on our snow pants and mittens and were gonna make some hot chocolate and work on some Z-parts.

[Carl Beck]

Another thought along the same lines:

Anyone with enough money can buy a car...sports, classic, rare, exotic, all it takes is money. That's what the jet-set does, but then again, they don't have the time to take on a long project. To them the trip is about the destination. If that's what you're into, buy the best car that someone else has worked on.

But don't expect to be seen in the same light as those that have skinned their knuckles, shed a drop or two of blood, sweat and tears, or spent weeks or months looking for that specific part... trying to bring their "baby" back onto the road. To those that have travelled this other path, it's not about the money, and while the destination has always been in mind, it's the journey there that's part of the trip. Once you're there, you're filled with memories of the journey itself and you share them with others also along their paths. Money can't buy those memories, nor the friendships, nor the satisfaction. It's not about the money, it's about the process.

FWIW

E

Sorry E - but I have to protest, or disagree, or make the counter points...

I believe that is a grossly unfair misrepresentation, where you infer that serious Classic Car Collectors, Serious Z Car Enthusiasts are "jet setters" just because they buy the cars they love rather than build them themselves.

I really disagree with the perspective that if you didn't do it yourself, it somehow has less meaning, worth or value; than the meaning, worth, or value put into finding and buying the Classic Car of your dreams.

No question that there is indeed a specific group of people that enjoy buying expensive toys for themselves. Their motives may be to impress their friends, or simply to wizz off the poor people that envy them. Yes that group exists - but so far they aren't buying Datsun 240-Z's!!

No question that there is another specific group of people - that through their hard work have put themselves in a position to be able to finally buy the cars of their youthful dreams - but do we really want to look down our noses at them - for writing a rather large check for a near perfect 240-Z? They are the very people that provide the rational, or belief that most of us hold on to - while we are writing a seemingly endless number of smaller checks, with bleeding knuckles and shaking hands.

Would any of us put $25K+ into "refreshing" a 240-Z without any hope that if we had to sell it at some point in the future - there might be a buyer that could write a check for at least $18K for that #3 condition 240-Z????

You seem to hold the impression that the serious Collector, or Enthusiast is a gadfly, just writing checks along the way to his destination. What you fail to comprehend is that buying the 240Z they wanted, is really a significant milestone on their journey. Make no mistake, they are enjoying their journey just as much as any of us.

If anything, I'm really thankful that "those people" are there, that they want to join us in our affection for for our Z's.

The bottom line is - NO you don't have to do it yourself to fully appreciate fine craftsmanship, love a classic car, nor be a Z Car Enthusiast. It is perfectly acceptable at least to me - to send a car out for restoration or write a big check for one that's already done. If owning a "new" 240-Z enhances your journey - .... Me and Mr. K will be there smiling and waving as you pass by.... after all none of us built the car to begin with... and there is no need for us to do it ourselves today.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Oiluj]

Carl,

I really don't think anyone here is denagrating those who buy an already restored car. Heck, for what I'm investing, given 12 months, I could have eventually found a fully restored Z! (Though perhaps not in my choice of color).

I think what some of us, (or at least just me), are saying is that we gain a strong sense of accomplishment and take pride in our doing much of the work ourselves. From reading your posts, I think you probably fall into this group as well.

FWIW, it would be nice if I could afford to just go out and buy a perfectly restored Ferrari 246 Dino, (I can't), nor can I justify spending $60K to have my Z restored.

However, I don't envy those who can. In my experience, the few "wealthy" people I've met got there by working extremely hard and making personal sacrifices I was unwilling to make. Like you, I appreciate anyone who loves and maintains these wonderful older sports cars.

[Kerrigan]

The bodywork and repaint on this 1971 FairladyZ-L just completed cost $6k.

The job is "okay", not #1 show winner quality, but for a summer driver people say it is good.

Comp work would be about $10,000.

Another $2k in badges, parts, etc., etc.

Altogether, with the cost of the car, we have over 30 years about $22,000 invested.

Barrett-Jackson Auction thinks it would bring about $34k in their auction for a collector, as it is "close".

Mind you, no engine, tranny, or pumpkin work was involved. 76k miles on the car and the mechanicals have a long way to go.

I've spent a month, 1-2 hours a day, hand-cutting the final clearcoat to remove swirls.

Last car I'm "refreshing" ... :-)

Bottom line: would I do it to this car again? In a New York Minute.

Am I gonna sell the car? My widow can sell it ....

[EScanlon]

Carl;

"Me thinks the lady doth protest too much."

I can understand your umbrage at what I wrote. But then again, you understood our point of view when the likes of McKrack pontificated their point of view to the rest of us. Would you equate McKrack's efforts to the rest of ours?

That places you directly on the fence between those who can simply write a check, and those who must ponder, weigh, and debate each and every expenditure in the process of working on their car.

While there are items that I've not hesitated to have them done by a profesional or to purchase outright, there are far more things that I've done myself and refurbished rather than replace due to the $ involved. To the individual with disposeable income, such deliberation is unheard of. Then again, I've been the one to purchase THEIR discards. So it all works out.

But, when I find myself at a car show, and I run into one of those individuals discussing their restoration....can you understand my disdain?

Then again, there ARE individuals with both the ability to work on AND the money to have it worked on. They can choose what and if they wish to expend their energy on. Some of these individuals can be the best sources of information, knowledge and experience. I cannot say I've never met a jacka$$ amongst these owners, but it's rare to find one here than amongst those that strictly pay for things and still insist on taking the credit for having done the work....when they've simply bought others efforts.

However, when it comes to coming over to your place and pitching in and helping you effect the same work on your car...I'll take the guy I'm referring to. He's willing to go to the boneyard with or without you, and if he should find a piece there when he's alone that you might need, he'll either buy it or call you and ask if you want it. He'll probably show up and help you install it, or take it home, clean it and then get it to you. He knows that you're trying to get your car on the road...without mortgaging your house. He'll help you refurbish, repair, modify and put items back in use .... that the check writer will simply replace, without a second thought. When the job is done, he'll share the memories of your restoration with you. He'll tell others about the work you did. He's like a wing-man.

I've yet to see a check writer have a wing-man.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't hold a grudge for those that can afford to simply write a check. Nor do I think their enjoyment is any less or more than mine. It's different. One man's tea is another's dirty water, and another's poor substitute for coffee.

But the last paragraph in your post speaks volumes.

The bottom line is - NO you don't have to do it yourself to fully appreciate fine craftsmanship, love a classic car, nor be a Z Car Enthusiast. It is perfectly acceptable at least to me - to send a car out for restoration or write a big check for one that's already done. If owning a "new" 240-Z enhances your journey - .... Me and Mr. K will be there smiling and waving as you pass by.... after all none of us built the car to begin with... and there is no need for us to do it ourselves today.

Underlined emphasis mine.

You are fortunate in that you CAN write that check or send your car out for restoration. So I can understand why you feel there is no need for us to do it ourselves. For the rest of us who are NOT able to just pay for the restoration or to purchase a restored car, we find we MUST do it ourselves. Unless you or someone else is willing to foot the bill for us, which I feel isn't going to happen anytime soon, we'll just have to continue to toil away.

I do note that you make a definite distinction between "Restore" and "Refresh". I won't quibble with you as I agree. I also agree that it does not make financial sense to effect the Refresh or the Restore yourself when there are excellent vehicles for sale for much less than the TOTAL of the restore or refresh.

However, and this is probably the crux of this, not everyone here can simply write out a check for the $20-$25k purchase price you mention.

I'll venture to say, that the majority would have to consider long and hard such an expense.

I'll even go so far as to say that without financing, most of us wouldn't consider making that purchase.

And there lies your demarcation line.

Those who are fortunate enough can and will ... simply write a check.

The rest of us, will have to buy cheap, expend hours of labor, sweat and even a bit of blood and tears, probably spend twice the amount .... but do it one small bite at a time, spread out over years. And yes, hope that at the end of the road, we can find a check writer to buy it from us....or our heirs...at 25¢ on the dollar.

Then, when they are taking the time to admire the craftmanship, and enjoy a classic car and be a Z enthusiast....a lot of that craftmanship will be mine, it will have been a classic car that I helped rescue from the crusher, and they can continue the Z enthusiast legacy with MY car.

I think the ad says.....PRICELESS at the end.

FWIW

E

[26th-Z]

I'm with you on this one, Enrique. Some guys enjoy working on cars and as a result "can" rebuild their own cars. These guys devote the time because they want to. I'm going to love it when my cars are finished, but then I'll go looking for somethings else to attack. Working on the car is every bit enjoying the ride.

Some guys don't want to work on their cars and as a result "pay" for the finished product. They don't devote the time because they don't want to. They do other things with their time and it usually involves making money so that they can pay for the finished product. They have every right to beam about their accomplishment.

It all boils down to the road we drive. Either way, I suppose, we enjoy the ride. I'm on the build the car myself road.

[ToXIc]

wow guyz i never expected such a response..... you all are awesome....

i agree with you 100% doing a restoration your self give you a great feeling of accomplishment...

i dont mind getting a car with surface rust i can deal with that. what i dont want is having to swap out metal....

i found a car in Jackson, Georgia thats been sitting in a field for the past 5 years.... http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29489

so i got my fingers crossed.... i'm hoping that it only has surface rust and nothing trough the metal....

[DougN]

Of interest to me is the position that some feel that anyone who pays to have their car worked on is going to claim credit for the completed project. I can assure you that not everyone who pays for a restoration is going to claim "they" did it. There is a guy that lives near here that has many beautifully restored Z cars. He never claims to have restored them, however, he can, and does, take credit for keeping them detailed and hunting down missing parts, etc for them. He gives full credit to his mechanic for the work that he has done to the cars.

I also support my local Z-car mechanic. I do work that I can, and pay to have the rest done. Anyone who knows me can attest that I have never claimed credit for any work I did not do myself.

However, even if I pay my mechanic to do some work on the car, there are still a lot of thing I do as well, such as troubleshooting to determine what needs to be done, creating a "punch list" to make sure it is all done as I want it to be; hunting down, sourcing and securing parts for the cars; following up to make sure the work was done correctly; spending hours researching to determine the original configuration, placement, style, color, etc of some part or work. So while I may not turn the actual wrench, I do have significant involvment in where the wrench is to be turned and why. Like many "checkbook restorers", I am very actively involved in all aspects of retoration and maintenance of my cars.

I agree there is satsifaction to doing work yourself as well, and even more with friends. One of my fondest memories of my Lime Z is when the battery bracket bolt (that goes to the firewall) sheered off on the way to a meeting with a few Z enthusiast friends. We spent several hours that night in the driveway of a friends house with a screwdriver, chisel, hammer and old electric drill trying to get the bolt out to replace it (Remember that night Carl :classic:).

However, there is a different satisfaction in getting the car back from the mechanic and enjoying the results of the work done -- kind of like when you get a new car and drive it for the first time.

So the point of my long rambling is this -- to me, there is a place for those that do all their work themselves alongside those who pay others to have work done. Yes, there may be a few jerks that try to claim they did work they did not do. However, those people would be jerks regardless of whether they did the work themselves or payed for it, not because they paid someone else to do work on their car. In the end, regardless of how it got there, I think we can all agree that there is significant pleasure in driving a well restored and maintained classic Z :classic:

[Oiluj]

Doug,

Very Well Said.

[moonpup]

There's been alot of "Ohhhh's & Ahhhh's" from the folks here when viewing the "Mull" project, most of which has been farmed out. Are his efforts now to be "tarnished" because he has not done this with his own hands?

I'm pretty sure it would be extremely hard to find someone who has done 100% of their own restoration. One may have expertise with metal work/paint/mechanicals but how are they with upholstry? See what I'm getting at.

So where does anyone draw the line?