restoration costs?

[Carl Beck]

.... One of my fondest memories of my Lime Z is when the battery bracket bolt (that goes to the firewall) sheered off on the way to a meeting with a few Z enthusiast friends. We spent several hours that night in the driveway of a friends house with a screwdriver, chisel, hammer and old electric drill trying to get the bolt out to replace it (Remember that night Carl :classic:).

Hi Doug:

Yes, I certainly do remember it. Matter of fact, ToxIc's original post brought the picture of that night to my mind.

now i'm not like some of you lucky guyz out there that have the tools, space and skills to do a restoration. so i'm wondering what have the others paid for a good restoration.

We had the space and the skills that night - just not the proper tools. On the other hand we had plenty of beer ;-) I'm not sure if that made the process more or less challenging but it was more fun.

In spite of the fact that ToxIic stated right up front, that he did not have the tools, space and skills to do a restoration. Many people here told him to do it anyway. My original objection to, and disagreement with E's Post was that E told this newbe not to expect to be seen in the same light as those of us that do our own restorations/refreshes etc. E is certainly entited to his own light - but that is most certainly not the light I see the Z Car Community in.

Contrary to what E believes (don't tell him how poor I am) - I have never written a check for, nor bought in any other way, a restored nor refreshed Z - Of the 12 or so cars I've refreshed/restored, with the exception of paint/body work I do all my own work. I did send an historic racing engine out to professionals, I had to have professionals recreate a custom Fuel Cell etc.

I did my own work on cars when I was young because I couldn't afford to pay someone else. So I developed the skills and picked up the tools along the way. Later in my life I did the work myself because I enjoyed it, and yes I have the tools in a place large enough to work today. Nonetheless, like you and many others here, I see Purists or Modifiers, Restorers or Buyers, Racers or Weekend Warriors all in the same light - Classic Z Car Enthusiasts.

After all the discussion here - my best advice to ToxIic and others like him would be to go buy the best 240-Z they can afford. Pay the money right up front for a really good car. Take out a signature loan if necessary and pay it off over time - - in the end you'll be a lot of money ahead, and in the mean time you'll have a good car to drive and enjoy.

We have all seen too many people start do-it-yourself projects, spend a lot of money on all the wrong things, then let the project sit unfinished for years and years - only to dump it in the end. If you don't have the tools, skills and space; and little hope of gaining them in time to do the project - don't kid yourself. Of the three -"skills"- are the first one that needs to be developed. Buy a really good car to start with - then learn to do the minor things first, and increase the scope or difficulty level of follow on projects on that car.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[hls30.com]

There is room for everyone!

Personally, I have never seen an instruction in any Nissan S30 factory publication (and I have read most all of them-the English versions anyway) that reads anything close to "write a check"-meaning writing a check is not a skill that makes one an expert, but it does not preclude one from being an expert either.

I have paid for having things done that I didn't have the tools(including expertise) to do(removing broken 6mm studs from the block, boiling out a radiator, having a mirror resilvered).

I know people who believe writing a check makes them an expert, and I know people who know writing a check means that:

A) They don't have to be an expert.

and

They can enjoy instant gratification.

C) They won't always get what they paid for.

I think everyone falls into both types at one point or another-sometimes you buy something just to be on to the next thing!

To me on my Z, personal experience is more important than instant gratification, so more often than not, I'll get my hands in the dirt, and not the ink-and accept that means I may occasionally shout bad words and throw tools-directed into the yard, not the car!

The personal experience of writing a check has never made for much Z content...but doing something with the Z parts/tools the check bought has...

Will

ToXic, don't hold your breath, I looked at a car like that several years ago in that area, advertised as having "just a little rust and being an easy restore" it was well on its way to being restored to its original materials-rusting away back into the earth. Where leaves, extended sitting, and a Z are involved, there will be holes, lots of holes, and probably big holes.

Carl and E, you both are among the richest people I know. Knowing and working around your limitations proves your wisdom-if only I were as wise, I wouldn't shout bad words and throw tools!

Will

[EScanlon]

Will, thank you for your thoughts.

Carl, although you may think this is not the case, I truly DO agree with what you have said many times:

...go buy the best 240-Z they can afford. Pay the money right up front for a really good car. Take out a signature loan if necessary and pay it off over time - - in the end you'll be a lot of money ahead, and in the mean time you'll have a good car to drive and enjoy.

And I have even said the same thing myself. In fact, that's how I bought my car, with a signature loan. I chose to do further work on my car to bring it to a higher level of "refresh" than what it was. But I readily inform people where my work begins and where it ends.

I can also understand where our difference of opinion comes from my statement of:

But don't expect to be seen in the same light as those that have skinned their knuckles, shed a drop or two of blood, sweat and tears, or spent weeks or months looking for that specific part... trying to bring their "baby" back onto the road.

I'm not referring to the type of individual as Doug professes to be, nor to the person he refers to in his opening paragraph. Nor does it refer to Mull as Moonpup has pointed out.

I'm referring to the guy who at a local car show, who, after winning "Best ..." or "Yst Place XXX" is brought up to the microphone or podium and he starts expounding on the long road to it's current state "Paint job took 7 weeks, bodywork took another 10, before that it was a basket case and it took 200 days just to find the parts to mechanically overhaul it and another 90 to finally put it all together." Then he gets asked and how long did you acquire the car, "A month ago."

Do you see the type to whom I refer to?

And they ARE out there.

I'm not the only one here who has talked to these individuals hoping to get them to share a bit of information on how they did something, or WHERE they had something done or found a part to buy...only to be told that they didn't know as they had only "just" bought the car. Yet, they had been expounding the trials and tribulations they had suffered in geting it done.

Restoration by proxy is fine...as long as you acknowledge the proxy. But presuming to deserve the credit for craftmanship labor is heinous.

Whether your involvement with your car is in sourcing parts, identifying the work to be done, handing tools to the guy who is actually doing the work or simply taking it to the mechanic, acknowledge your involvement to the degree that you ARE involved. But the key point is .... GET INVOLVED!

A check writer just signs a check and assumes the credit for all the work done. What's worse they reserve the right to criticize other people's work based on what they bought.

Sorry, in my eyes, either "Push, Pull or Get the Hell Out of the Way!", but don't presume to know or have experienced something by having written a check.

If you do write a check and your involvement from there is simply to keep it maintained, and that's what you profess to, then that's understandable. I don't delve into tuning my carbs, yet my engine runs well and strong. Same thing with a lot of the mechanical work. Not that I CANNOT, but that I chose NOT TO. I've stated that here many times, and what I've gleaned in knowledge has been due to other members of the forum. I won't try to explain cold valve adjustment, but I know it must be done. Same with the Spindle Pin Puller making the job easier, yet I haven't done or used it.

That's what I meant by a different light.

E

[leeboat]

One Million Dollars!

[ToXIc]

stupid!!!!

[leeboat]

Like others said, I think by the photo it sitting in 5" of leaves and weeds, the underside is SURELY shot. Anything is restorable if your pockets are deep enough, but this might make a good donor for a clean tub found elsewhere. Time for a road trip to Arizona? I have a trailer if you have a truck! http://www.zcarsource.com/cars_and_shells.html

[iufan993]

When you buy a car, immediately set a limit on what you can afford, and then set your restoration goals.

I try to approach everything by net value. If I can buy a car, work on it for 12 months, sell it, and end up $5000 or less in the hole, then I will do it.

I have done a few "refreshening" projects and am currently in the middle of a complete restoration as well. Unfortunately I have done completely different cars, so that each new project is completely unfamiliar and takes me forever. For example, the current 3 cars -- a 1967 Lincoln, 1967 Nova, and 1975 280z. The "Z" is just a refresh.

I bought my "Z" for $8000. I will probably have $18000 when I am done, and I hope to sell it for about $13000. I can do most of the work myself, except for paint and body.

The Nova restoration will cost around $60K and I hope to sell it for $50-55K.

If I can have a hobby that costs me $5000 - $10000 per year, then it works financially for me, but anything more I consider too expensive.

When money runs tight, I just slow down or work on one car at a time.

If I am lucky, I might end up even on a couple of cars, but it hasn't happened yet.

This is one hobby that gives a good sense of accomplishment in the end. You just have to be willing to sell it. Concours restorations require a completely different mentality, and you must really enjoy showing the cars because of the cost involved.

Just my 2c on how I approched my first "Z" purchase.

[dukedog]

Bottom line, It's like SEX! the journy to the finish is most of the fun! and yes, I've had more fun with my daily driver's than my BIG BUCK resto's.

[geezer]

Bottom line, It's like SEX! the journy to the finish is most of the fun! and yes, I've had more fun with my daily driver's than my BIG BUCK resto's.

Sex? Yes, I prefer doing that myself and not farm it out.

[geezer]

First, I have to apologize for my feeble attempt at humor in that last post. It was not meant to belittle any of the points made by anyone in this thread.

Toxic, I don’t think I or anyone else can answer your question with a great deal of accuracy, without seeing the car up close & personal. Quotes will vary greatly, depending on the quality of work you specify and the type of work normally done by a particular shop. You know the old saying, “you get what you pay for?” Well, that’s only true if you are lucky and are treated fairly. Also, most shops would rather take on high volume insurance jobs and not cater to enthusiasts like us. That brings you to a shop that specializes in restorations, which in turn cranks the price dramatically skywards. Hey, these guys have to pay the bills too. From the small amount of practical Z experience I have acquired since owning my Z, I can see how it would be beneficial to have a shop specializing in Zs do the work. It really depends on the extent of the work needed & parts needed. That’s why it is so important for someone like yourself that is not able/equipped to do the work themselves to spend the money up front on a better condition car to begin with.

As far as doing the work yourself, there are a lot of pros & cons. After spending more time in the garage in my lifetime than most will ever do, and a few dozen varying degrees of restorations behind me, I can tell you a few things. First, from a financial perspective. It may be expensive to turn your car over to the pros for a restoration, but if you consider the expenditures you would have buying all the tools (and there is no end to what is wanted/useful) and the additional cost of acquiring and maintaining a suitable workspace, you are no further ahead. Then, there is the learning curve. Don’t expect to get professional results out the gate. It takes years to amass the amount of knowledge and level of expertise you would find at a pro shop, There are so many aspects to a restoration that no one man can do it all. Show me someone who says they can and I’ll show you someone who is mistaken. Over the years I have done much more freebie work for friends & family than I have done for myself. I’m not complaining and would do it all again. That’s what doing it myself means to me. I have enough great memories to last me a lifetime. Starting out at a young age, working with my Dad, my Brother, my Son and countless likeminded car guy friends, I guess you could say it’s in my blood and when I am unable to do it any longer, I won’t have any regrets. That’s me, but I don’t think people who have brought their cars to a professional restoration shop or bought their cars completely finished have any regrets either. It’s no different than buying a car off the showroom floor. You will still take pride in owning, maintaining and showing it off and you will also have memories to cherish & share. Sorry for the long post, but the stories relayed in this thread touch me and is a subject close to my heart.

[Zak's Z]

Sex? Yes, I prefer doing that myself and not farm it out.

Ron, thats too bad you have to do it by yourself. Maybe you should consider 'farming' it out if you have to do it by yourself so much. LOLLOL

(just kidding...I saw the humor on your post..but man you opened yourself up for some good 'ol flaming there)

[geezer]

Well Zak, were just trying to stay warm. You, busy working on Z parts and me getting my a$$ scorched.