2008 Int'l Convention Sep 28 - Oct 3

[mgood]

I just received my score sheets, I am very pleased with my scores I think. A total of 267. Also is 3rd place in Street Mod. first generation.

Interior - 89, I had some interesting comments like dirt inside chrome vents. Lint on carpet of speaker box. mismatched fasteners hatch trim panel, I have never removed this panel! Dirty window cranks. Worn glove box lock, the glove box has never been locked. All good to know.

Underhood - 86 Most of the comments were for dirt, corrosion and worn labels. I do need to work on this area.

External Area - 92 most of the comments are about scratches and chips on finders and bumpers. I love this one, dirt on the exhaust and suspension. I did drive in the rain to get there that morning.

I think I can add 13 to 14 points by better cleaning of different areas in and out on the car.

All in all it was a great time and I learned a lot with the score sheets.

[Kozby1976]

sad thing is some of the cars got judged for dirt and such on the under carriage and others didn't...its one of the main problems with volunteer judging...inconsistant judging will and favoritism on friends cars, the only way to truely judge these cars or any is outside judges that don't have cars in the show., or a panel selected from the ZCCA to judge at every convention.

[hls30.com]

sad thing is some of the cars got judged for dirt and such on the under carriage and others didn't...its one of the main problems with volunteer judging...inconsistant judging will and favoritism on friends cars, the only way to truely judge these cars or any is outside judges that don't have cars in the show., or a panel selected from the ZCCA to judge at every convention.

If a judge had a car in a class, he could not judge that class, a few judges at Daytona even asked to stay out of a class their friends/nemisis were in.

As to having inconsistant judging and favoritism in judging, In Daytona, I judged every S30, S130, and Z32 for myself, and also judged a class for the show. immediatly after the show I spoke with Paul Hollander and asked him to send me the scores of each car with no judge identification. After several reminders to keep the cracks at bay, He sent the scores to me. I went through my personal scores of the cars in question, and found that I was within 1% at the outside on every score. I did this to verify my Judging ability, but I think it works to validate the other judges scores as well. that is Some people may have a hard time being honest with their friends, but I take that as a responsability, not as something to cause problems-and it looks like the other judges I compared did too.

When I found dirt, I took off the same point(s) everywhere I found it, and noted where. I did the same thing for worn parts. I don't judge to award a trophy, I judge to allow the owner to learn what to do to improve-and assume he wants to do better and learn from each judging.

I use the same deductions on every car, and every model. When our club was getting ready to display cars at the Hilton Head Concours, I reviewed some of the members cars months before the show so that there was a list of opportunities for each interested member-I upset a few members on the spot, but everything I pointed out was an issue, and something I would have taken points for.

Will

[zhead240]

i know Will was one judge. i don't know who the other 2 were, but i'm certain judging was impartial and fair. i don't believe favouritism was involved.

[TomoHawk]

I just received my score sheets, I am very pleased with my scores I think.

Interior - 89, I had some interesting comments like dirt inside chrome vents. Lint on carpet of speaker box. mismatched fasteners hatch trim panel, I have never removed this panel! Dirty window cranks. Worn glove box lock, the glove box has never been locked. All good to know.

You might want to view some videos by the experts in detailing: http://www.expertvillage.com/video/5106_car-detailing-interior.htm

You'd be surprised at some of the things they do, like blowing air INTO the dash vents with the fan on HI.

Otherwise, you can't assume something is clean or good. Look at it from another point-of-view. Have your neighbor look at it. write down everything he comments on (you don't need an expert for that), then go after the things you can do or want to do.

[BARACU]

I have attended three National Conventions over the last several years and I have found the judging WITHIN a class to be fair and impartial. The inconsistency comes into play when awards are given for the show ,as a whole. That is the "Best of Show, Engine, Interior and Exterior" and the Gold Cup and Gold medallion qualifying. With the number of judging teams and the number of classes it is virtually impossible to have any consistency in the judging and the degree of leniency between judging individuals and judging teams. At one National, not one car in an entire class did not score high enough to qualify for Gold judging (there were some VERY good cars in that class), while more than half of another class of 16 cars qualified.

The judging sheets tell a judge what areas are to be judged , however more attention has to be paid to HOW an area is to be judged. I saw some judges using flashlights to judge , while others used nothing. Some judges virtually crawling under cars to judge , others just giving a cursory look. Some judges actually FEELING for dirt under components where it is impossible to visually judge. I don't believe a judge has any right to touch a vehicle to find deductions other than to open doors ,glove boxes ,etc. If you can't see it....don't deduct it. Judging in an enclosed building is at it's best very difficult.

If anyone thinks my comments are in the form of complaining or "sour grapes "..they're not. My car won 1ST Place in it's Class and Best of Show Interior and Best of Show Engine.

Will mentioned ,in an earlier post, that the ZCCA is looking at rewriting some of the judging guidelines . I think they should be commended for this and would be happy to share my thoughts with any members of that committee. Thanks, AL

[mgood]

I did not post my results to create a controversy. On the contrary I was happy how my car was judged. I had never had my car in a judged show and was glad to get the score I did. I now know more and should score better next time.

I debated on going to the car show because it was raining that morning here in Pittsburgh, my car had not been driven in the rain for over 15 years. But I decided to go because I wanted to meet some of you and I wanted to see how my car looked compared to the others.

I see now that the judges are concerned with how the car is prepped, I thought they would judge the paint on the car more aggressively. I didn't expect them to look in the air vents for dust or look for lent on the carpet.

I lost the most points in the engine bay and I kind of knew that would happen. I will be doing some engine bay clean up work this summer.

[hls30.com]

Michael,

You didn't start the controversy, your post simply invited comments-a seriously good thing!

This type of conversation needs to happen so that the powers that be see what they need to work on. The car owners are the judges for the judging process, and they need to get involved to understand and/or modify it.

Lead Judges do hold a judge training class every so often, I drove from Savannah to Clearwater to attend one hosted by Chris Wenzell, at Autoway Nissan. Along the way I got to spend thirteen hours with Carl Beck, Max, and the rest of his family-too cool!

The class was attended by around twenty people, and Chris walked us through several cars displayed in the showroom including Zrush, Zwolf, a couple of modified 350s, a Seriously beautiful stock 280ZX(Todds?), a stock driver 300ZX, and a couple of other cars. Chris went right through the judging sheets on each car, and then had everyone do the same. He had everyone work up their own scores for a car and then we discussed them. Chris was stayed at the end to address questions, and pointed out the details on the cars at hand-he was very focused on helping everyone to become a comfortable and capable Z judge.

The only let down to the entire thing was I was told Chris would be teaching us all the proper appreciation for hooters girls immediately following the show, and he jetted off to appreciate them by himself...saying something about needing reproduction practice...with a huge smile on his face!

We have several Judges that are active on this site, including Senior judges-They have been very responsive to questions in the threads because they don't want the rules to be mysterious, and I know the goal of the judging rules is to remove the latitude that seems to be there, that is why the rules are being refined, and there is a seriously detailed Judging handbook in the works containing a plethora of photographic examples. If we all have the rules ahead of time-as we do now-, and an illustrated guide book to see the points deduction, the scores should be completely understood, and available to all before the formal judging.

Will

[26th-Z]

Will's judging team at Cleveland included Chris Karl, chair of the Cleveland convention and ZCCA vice president, and Cathy, a convention participant and 350Z owner as I recall.

I don't remember the classes I judged at Cleveland but I would say that the scoring was very light due to the high number of cars that made it into the Gold Cup / Medallion round. Of course you recall we tried to get all the cars out in daylight only to have it start raining again. What a fiasco. Al forgot to mention that he won the most unique top award.

Guys, the judges do the best they can and you gotta recognize them for spending the time to look at all the cars. It takes around thirty judges to do the ZCCA show and it is an all-day affair for most. There simply aren't thirty people who consistantly show up at the ZCCA conventions year-after-year to offer the quality of judging we might wish for. My hat is off to anyone who will take the time to act as a judge and be around to help.

To that end, the ZCCA judging is focused on cleanliness in an effort to keep the playing field level. I know it gets tricky in the stock classes but that's only one group of classes out of five groups. I know all about the rain issues - I judged exteriors for the final round. It's all supposed to be fun and no one should take anything personal. For the judges, it's rather difficult - frankly.

Yea, I think it is time to publish a rules revision. We'll see... Generally speaking, the way scoring deductions work, 10 points for something that appears brand new, 5 points for obviously used appearance, and 0 points for disgraceful looking junk.

Edited March 19, 2009 by 26th-Z

[BARACU]

Michael: I didn't take your comments to be controversial, at all. As Will said, it opens some of the judging areas up to comment and conversation. If some of the national judges are members of this forum, perhaps a thread on Judging may be appropriate.

Chris, I knew you'ld chime in on some of this and I appreciate your input. BTW...where is my "special top " award? During the initial judging, I actually opened up my umbrella for the judges to look at(hehe). I realized a few years ago. that you can't lose points for something that isn't there. hence, removal of the entire roof of the car. I didn't lose a single point for headliner, rain gutter trim , roof or quarter windows!

I appreciate the difficulty in getting judges for a show and the time the judges spend . I also understand that you can never have the same teams of judges at all the national events. This is all the more reason that the rules of judging and method of judging be refined and/or rewritten to insure that the judges, regardless of the event, be on the same page. Since any judging is both objective and subjective, I think the National Committee should strive to remove as much of the subjective factor as possible.One area thatI have witnessed over and over is the disproportionate deduction of points in a given area. AS an example, in Cleveland , I was deducted 2 pts for "paint discoloration behind bumper". Let's break down the entire Exterior category. The entire exterior is worth 100pts, within that are there are 10 individual areas for judging. It should be safe to assume that each individual area is worth 10pts. Section E3 is PAINT (condition and color). If one were to break down the exterior area of the car there are probably 13 major individual areas to be judged for paint . Hood, hatch, roof, cowl, 2 headlight buckets,2 front fenders, 2 doors , 2 rocker panels, 2 rear quarters. That's 14 areas worth 10pts. 2 pts for discoloration BEHIND a bumper seems excessive. (BTW..I still haven't found that "discoloration"). The same disporoportionate point deductions were taken in another area with "paint discoloration on valance" 2pts. (Can't find that one either) One can't help but wonder how many points would be deducted if the valance was missing. I ,coincidentally, missed The Gold Cup by 4 pts.

I agree with others, that a Show is not about the awards, but about the cars. Also , more importantly to me, it's about the people and new friends that we make. But , for myself and those like me who may spend a thousand or more hours in building a car ( I do 99% of the work myself), I not only expect but deserve a fair and equitable set of judging rules and guidelines. Thanks, AL

[Kozby1976]

I guess I don't understand from the Cleveland convention that there were several cars that should have been Gold Cup and Gold Medalion(I know I spelled that wrong) and not one car got it...this coming from a club that has several cars from other conventions that recieved these awards...there were cars there that I as well as several others that have been to conventions that couldn't believe that the cars presented didn't win the trophy....the judging was kinda weird with alot of people of what was deducted from one car wasn't done for others with the same dirt as on the green Z that I commented from...this happens at all the conventions that I have been to in the past...personal experience, at the Tulsa convention, my judging sheets showed that when they judged my interior they noted that my drivers seat had a puncture in the material...deducted points for it...it would have been fine except it was the judge who sat in my car with a open pen that produced the hole in my seat...In Daytona i had to stop a judge that was smoking from stop smoking and dropping ash into the interior of a Z he was judging. I know that its about the cars...but also people like myself and some of my fellow Z friends spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars on our Z's to get the top honors for our work only to be squashed by a judge that was more or less consistant with their viewpoint of what your car is and if they like you or what you may have done to your car...Like with Al's car or even Laverne's car...come'on you're telling me that there is no car from cleveland that should have recieved the Gold Cup award???? How is that even possible???... anyway, this is just my .02 on the subject...wait till you see what I'm currently doing to my 76 babyblue 2+2...all I'm going to say is that my new class is ULTRA modified, and its not chevy powered...Zya all at the next convention!!!

Edited March 19, 2009 by Kozby1976
had to add a response that was cheerful

[BARACU]

Dave, There was one Gold medallion awarded. Roger Casanova from Syracuse with his 300ZX. I've judged his car at some of our local shows and it was well deserved. He has 2 Gold medallions. Both his cars are identical with the exception that one is a turbo. AL