Wish I could have such luck selling on eBay!

[EScanlon]

I read threads like this one and marvel at the amazing capability of folks to belittle, disect and otherwise denigrate a vehicle presented to them via pictures, that has been cleaned up and attempts made to make it more desireable to prospective buyers.

Yet, based solely on a member's description of an admitted RUSTED vehicle, we praise it's virtues and potential: see

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?p=246068#post246068

It seems that ANY attempt at making it sellable is a negative.

Opening statements such as

I can pick that Z apart.

or

To me there is something a bit fishy about this one...

speak volumes about our willingness to find fault and "chinks" in the presentation.

Heck, I'll bet that the vehicles that can survive the kind of suspicious inspection that gets formulated are few and far between....if any. I wonder how many of these folk's vehicles would.

How come nobody suggested a drive out to inspect the car? It may have at least lent credence to the disection as a form of discussion, but other than that most of the comments are nothing but conjecture based on the ability to doubt the image presented.

Are there flaws, you bet. The Chrome on the bumpers is a very sad tell-tale, that might be a very innocent .... oops! or an intentional effort at correcting a poor chrome job from 35+ years ago. (And that has been known to occur so often that we recommend, painting, powder coating, re-chroming, etc. just to make it presentable.)

Not every vehicle that gets stored and forgotten in a garage gets put away properly. Nor do they get maintained every week, month...sometimes year. Will some items in the car deteriorate just from sitting around being exposed to the air? Yup. If not properly put away, (and we have dozens of threads on how to do just that) we all mention what problems you may expect. What if this car is an attempt at correcting a poor storage procedure? It might not be all damaged goods.

I wonder if we would belittle it as much if we found out the car was one of our member's who was having it sold by a 3rd party simply to avoid the hazzle of the sale, or an estate sale.

Would we belittle Bambikiller's vehicle in the same manner? I know his vehicle had had a lot of work done on it, and still needed more work when he passed away.

Sorry, but there's enough negativity in the world without fomenting it here. If you want to point out questionable items, fine, do so. But attributing evil intent, or an intent to defraud, or a willingness to cheat....that's what's just plain old ugly and distasteful.

My .5¢ (it's not worth a full penny)

E

[MikeW]

Slightly off-topic....Sorry for the noob question, but how do you convert the auction page to a .pdf? I like that idea!

If you use windows you can use the free PrimoPDF which is a printer driver that creates PDF files. In the case of an eBay auction you'd just tell your browser to print the page and select the PDF driver instead of a normal printer.

http://www.primopdf.com/

[BRE-240Z]

If you use windows you can use the free PrimoPDF which is a printer driver that creates PDF files.

If you have a Mac, you just print to PDF....it's built into the OS.

[xray]

I read threads like this one and marvel at the amazing capability of folks to belittle, disect and otherwise denigrate a vehicle presented to them via pictures, that has been cleaned up and attempts made to make it more desireable to prospective buyers.

(...snipped)...

Are there flaws, you bet. The Chrome on the bumpers is a very sad tell-tale, that might be a very innocent .... oops! or an intentional effort at correcting a poor chrome job from 35+ years ago. (And that has been known to occur so often that we recommend, painting, powder coating, re-chroming, etc. just to make it presentable.)

Not every vehicle that gets stored and forgotten in a garage gets put away properly. Nor do they get maintained every week, month...sometimes year. Will some items in the car deteriorate just from sitting around being exposed to the air? Yup. If not properly put away, (and we have dozens of threads on how to do just that) we all mention what problems you may expect. What if this car is an attempt at correcting a poor storage procedure? It might not be all damaged goods.

My .5¢ (it's not worth a full penny)

E

Enrique,

Firstly, your opinions are always more valuable than the credit you give them. You raise many good points, and I've also grown tired of the hobby of picking apart every car offered for sale.

The interesting thing is that despite all it's flaws, the car nearly garnered $10,000 in bids. Even though it didn't meet reserve, I think that's potentially significant. IMO, from what I saw of that car 10k is not too far from what it's worth.

Now, if we'd just quit the sniping and be more supportive of folks trying to EBay or sell their Z, we may see (or stop preventing) an increase in interest and/or value to our cars. You think people looking for another project don't browse this site looking for info on restoration, value etc? And when they do, and see people posting about why this or the other car is not worth $2 or some such nonsense, that forms an impression on them that gets carried forward to other potential Z purchases. I think it perpetuates the notion that this car is "bargain basement" or "entry level" value, in the face of all the positive press in the collector car mags about how the Z is the One to Watch.

I am a perfect example of this. I'm looking for my next project, and am considering an Alfa, a 914/6 an early 911 or something similar. I immediately cruised their respective forums (where I could find them) to see what people are thinking in regards to buy/sell values and the commensurate condition of the car, and have had to revise upward what I'm willing to pay for a good restorable example of each of those marques. Why? Because very few folks tear down each other's cars that are for sale, regardless whether they are a forum member or not. They know that there's intrinsic value, even if the car's in need of serious TLC. I am certainly not an outlier in this process, so I think it reasonable to assume others do the same when looking for a Z as a potential restoration candidate.

So, when times get tough, or your interests change, and you go to sell your Z you should remember that the reason you don't get what you think it should be worth may have something to do with statements made on forums like those above. Folks may enjoy ripping into the condition of one car or the other, but I think in the end it may do more harm than good.

E, I'll see your $0.005 and raise you $0.02...

[bigoak]

Hear hear...

[Arne]

Interesting thoughts. Remember the guy trying to sell a high-dollar Z a while back ranting about how we Z enthusiasts are cheap b*****ds and aren't willing to pay what these cars are worth? He wasn't pleasant about it, but the gist of his rant was that we Z people are holding down the values on our own cars.

And you know what? Maybe he was right...

[a7dz]

Have to agree with the thoughts of not tearing down a car for sale here. I have found myself protecting the cars here of late. Two years ago when I started into this 70, Parts were pretty easy to come by, as we keep letting these go by saying that one is not worth that much or it is just a parts car. We all loose. Yes, some of these cars are not easy ones to repair or restore. Mine was in that class. But, it is a beautiful car today. Was it worth the efforts you tell me? On this side of the steering wheel it is better then ever

[Z Speed]

Enrique,

Firstly, your opinions are always more valuable than the credit you give them. You raise many good points, and I've also grown tired of the hobby of picking apart every car offered for sale.

The interesting thing is that despite all it's flaws, the car nearly garnered $10,000 in bids. Even though it didn't meet reserve, I think that's potentially significant. IMO, from what I saw of that car 10k is not too far from what it's worth.

Now, if we'd just quit the sniping and be more supportive of folks trying to EBay or sell their Z, we may see (or stop preventing) an increase in interest and/or value to our cars. You think people looking for another project don't browse this site looking for info on restoration, value etc? And when they do, and see people posting about why this or the other car is not worth $2 or some such nonsense, that forms an impression on them that gets carried forward to other potential Z purchases. I think it perpetuates the notion that this car is "bargain basement" or "entry level" value, in the face of all the positive press in the collector car mags about how the Z is the One to Watch.

I am a perfect example of this. I'm looking for my next project, and am considering an Alfa, a 914/6 an early 911 or something similar. I immediately cruised their respective forums (where I could find them) to see what people are thinking in regards to buy/sell values and the commensurate condition of the car, and have had to revise upward what I'm willing to pay for a good restorable example of each of those marques. Why? Because very few folks tear down each other's cars that are for sale, regardless whether they are a forum member or not. They know that there's intrinsic value, even if the car's in need of serious TLC. I am certainly not an outlier in this process, so I think it reasonable to assume others do the same when looking for a Z as a potential restoration candidate.

So, when times get tough, or your interests change, and you go to sell your Z you should remember that the reason you don't get what you think it should be worth may have something to do with statements made on forums like those above. Folks may enjoy ripping into the condition of one car or the other, but I think in the end it may do more harm than good.

E, I'll see your $0.005 and raise you $0.02...

I couldn't agree more. Very well stated Steve.....

[yor5150]

If you use windows you can use the free PrimoPDF which is a printer driver that creates PDF files. In the case of an eBay auction you'd just tell your browser to print the page and select the PDF driver instead of a normal printer.

http://www.primopdf.com/

Thanks Mike. I hadn't heard of PrimoPDF. I use CutePDF, another freebie.

[Carl Beck]

Have to agree with the thoughts of not tearing down a car for sale here. ..snipped....

I'm not so sure I do.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. We are talking about the car here.....

We are all here to discuss Z Cars, most of us already own one (or more) and have at least some hands on experience in the past year or two. (yes/no?)

People that are interested in perhaps buying a Z - come here to gain information about them - and many times that results in them asking us - what should they look for, how much should they pay, what does it cost to refresh/restore or even "save one".... (yes/no?)

Then a car comes up for sale - and so that we don't hurt our own financial interests - we are supposed to stop finding, and pointing out all the faults with the cars offered for sale??

We should refrain from warning potential buyers - ie. the people that might become a member of our group - ... we should refrain from pointing out the flaws and thus the additional expenses they might incur with any particular car being considered for purchase ...

Sorry, but I see your logic as somewhat backwards.... We should be helping the new buyers get the best car they can - so that they keep them. They should be buying with their eyes wide open. We should also be holding seller's to a level of honesty in disclosure....

I don't believe that telling the truth in public - can hurt any of us in the end.

There is also a huge difference in pointing out the flaws of any particular Z - and arguing about it's market value. I'll have to agree that many people here hold much lower opinions as to the market values of many of these cars - than the market actually seems to be telling us...

FWIW,

Carl B.

[yor5150]

Thank goodness for freedom of speech. I'm glad that we all have a chance to express our opinions.

I would have to know and see a lot more than the description provides. It's a scant description and really a big lack of pictures of very important places..... Haven't we seen a fair amount of nicer cars go for less?

Some people list like this, have friends bid them up, then relist later using the first sale price as an interest inflater. I'm not saying that's what's going on here at all, but I think it'll be relisted soon whether it 'sells' or not. Just a thought, not a fact.

It didn't sell and the ad still seems suspicious to me. I believe DeesZ is on the mark especially about the lack of pictures in all the places Z lovers want to see pictures of.

Whether it was legitimate or not I hope my 260 generates as much interest when I sell it in the next few months. :laugh:

Just tossing a few more pennies in the pot. Pretty soon we'll have enough to buy a parts car.

[EScanlon]

I'm not so sure I do.

Let me see if I understand this correctly...

Sorry Carl, you missed the point entirely. Please read on.

We are talking about the car here.....

We are all here to discuss Z Cars, most of us already own one (or more) and have at least some hands on experience in the past year or two. (yes/no?).

Yes, we're all presumably here to discuss Z cars, not figure out how people are intentionally trying to cheat, lie or otherwise deceive others when selling a car. That's the main crux of what I pointed out.

People that are interested in perhaps buying a Z - come here to gain information about them - and many times that results in them asking us - what should they look for, how much should they pay, what does it cost to refresh/restore or even "save one".... (yes/no?).

If that is how you see the content of this thread, then maybe I'm the one that has the wrong insight into how to discuss the value of a car. Then again, I've never been a car salesman.

To me, alluding "insurance fraud", "scams", schill bidders, skepticism as to the truth behind the pictures, allegations based on the number of pictures, presuming a dishonest intent on behalf of the seller...are all indications of a non-accepting disposition.

None of these have anything to do with the value of, nor what to look for in the car...they all lead people to think that if the car has been washed or detailed, then the seller is hidding something. That's is simply NOT necessarily the case.

Does it sometimes happen? Yes it does, but that doesn't render everyone who is trying to sell a car guilty of being dishonest simply because they washed the dirt and grime off.

Then a car comes up for sale - and so that we don't hurt our own financial interests - we are supposed to stop finding, and pointing out all the faults with the cars offered for sale?? .

Sorry Carl, that take is entirely your own misunderstanding. That's not what is being said, nor implied.

What IS being implied...directly...is that as a group we seem to speak out of both sides of our mouth, or with a forked tongue. Let me try to explain.

If a car shows up on e-Bay by an unknown person...it's a free for all to see who can best come up with a "cut-down", or a "Yo mama..." type of joke regarding the evil, dishonest, and untruthfulness of the e-bay seller.

Yet, a member mentions a rust bucket and we laud it's potential value, praise it's future potential and generally encourage the member as to what a good find he made and how he should go ahead and devote time and money to it. (go back and read the further posts to the thread I reference above)

I am not saying to NOT mention the flaws...I'm saying don't attribute wrongful, evil, dishonest, or untruthful motives to those that address the flaws.

Many times those flaws are obvious, and people unwittingly attempt to repair them. Mostly they are doing it to maximize their sale potential...NOT TO DEFRAUD YOU.

They, like many members here, feel quite good about some of the work they have done. And that is where I asked how we would treat a member's car. Whether offered for sale by him, or by his executor, or.... I'll bet that if we know whose car it is, the treatment will be much more benevolent than any other car that we've discussed.

We should refrain from warning potential buyers - ie. the people that might become a member of our group - ... we should refrain from pointing out the flaws and thus the additional expenses they might incur with any particular car being considered for purchase ....

Again, this is your misunderstanding.

Even with some of the cars you have had a hand in selling. Whether as a commissioned salesperson, contact point, or go-between, many times the buyer comes back and mentions further expenses they choose to make.

Should we start wondering why there wasn't a full disclosure of additional expenses they chose to incur? Was your intent evil? Did you purposedly HIDE something from the buyer and they then discover it?

Probably not. I'll go so far as to say that this offends you, as that is undoubtedly not even something you would think about. And there you have my point. (And please note, I am NOT implying you are deceiving folks, your record stands alone, and the praise is noteworthy.)

With ANY car purchase; new, old, restored or refreshed, part of the act of taking ownership and feeling pride in just plain owning or in actually doing some work with it, comes the part where you do something to, in your mind, make the car...YOURS. Whether that's a pair of fuzzy dice, new valve cover, metal tire valve caps, paint job, new interior or just simply a wash and wax, it's what you've done, and now the car is and feels yours.

Sometimes those expenses are things you knew when you bought the car. Other times, they can be a surprise. The soft clutch turns out to be a totally worn disk and not a bleed or a new slave. The little clunk from the rear end isn't a loose half-shaft, it's a bad transmission or differential. Were these intentionally with held? Maybe and more than likely MAYBE NOT.

I'm sure that you'll agree that the sellers in the transactions you were involved in did NOT have any evil, dishonest or malevolent intent inadvertently forgetting that .... "Ooops, yes, the clutch DID get changed at 40k because my wife rode the pedal while learning how to drive a stick and we simply forgot about replacing it. Sorry about that".

As opposed to: "A car with 80k on the ORIGINAL cluch? I don't think so, there's something fishy going on here! What kind of a SCAM are you trying to pull?"

"Seller said 'New tires' but at 50k miles? Also a new muffler? Hmmm, must have been raced everywhere! The guy is trying to rip you off!" and not, "Tires got flat spots from sitting, muffler rusted out from old age and mice, we replaced them to make the car nicer and ready to drive."

That's the kind of negative attitude I refer to. Nothing to do with value, market or otherwise, simply the negativity of the whole thread.

Sorry, but I see your logic as somewhat backwards.... We should be helping the new buyers get the best car they can - so that they keep them. They should be buying with their eyes wide open. We should also be holding seller's to a level of honesty in disclosure.

I don't believe that telling the truth in public - can hurt any of us in the end.

....

You're correct in that we should be helping interested people, potential buyers to get the best CAR, my point is that it is not about the best STORY about potential conspiracies designed to defraud them.

While there are people out there who DO need to be reminded to be truthfull, it isn't EVERYONE. That is the crux of my point. Let's not continue to assign malicious intent to oftentimes innocent actions.

Then again, isn't that why Car salesmen jokes are always filled with how the buyer gets ripped off? Because after all, Grandmothers on their way to church on Sunday use the slicks, the fart can mufflers and the stroker engines to make sure they get heard before they arrive....right?

Telling the truth is ideal, yet with people so willing to try to see wrongdoing in simple declarations....THAT'S what can hurt us NOW and in the end.

It paints this forum's members as a bunch of harpies just willing to pick apart any car that isn't their own. What we build in respect for our knowledge base and speed of response gets washed away by the cutting edge of these "discussions". Let's address the obvious FACTS and not the innuendos; note the painted bumper as not being correct, not as the guy is obviously trying to pull a fast one. Note the fresh black paint in the wheel wells as a common practice in new and used car lots everywhere and not...it's hiding something.

There is also a huge difference in pointing out the flaws of any particular Z - and arguing about it's market value. I'll have to agree that many people here hold much lower opinions as to the market values of many of these cars - than the market actually seems to be telling us...

FWIW,

Carl B.

Sorry Carl, you missed the point entirely.

It isn't about pointing out the flaws, it's HOW we go about pointing out the flaws.

It isn't about the individual car's market value, it's how we belittle each and every flaw and render the car as a potential bomb waiting to explode. It's how we conclude that every car being sold MUST have flaws, it can't possibly be that nice. It's how we allude to the seller's dishonesty and intention to deceive.

It's how we PUBLICLY and OPENLY demonize and degrade the people who are selling their cars.

It's how we denigrate, belittle and go further out of our way the higher the price being sought. That's just plain old - WRONG.

Whether they are original owner's, heirs of original owner's, executors of estates, second owner's or people who have gone out to dig out that "barn find" or even Grandpa's car who after years in the nursing home finally agrees that the chances of his driving it again are slim, but he insists that the car be washed and waxed and please shoot some black paint in the wheel wells because he wants a last set of pictures that match the ones when he picked it up from the dealer....I'll be willing to bet that most of these people are trying to find an easy and quick way of maximizing the money they receive for the car.

Sometimes that's through e-Bay (whether we approve of it or not), othertimes it's through Craig's list (for all it's limitations) and other times it's through the newspaper ads or the help of individuals such as you and other's. Could that be why you don't often post potential sales here? Or would the point I'm making be the reason why potential sellers would NOT want to post here?

There may be a bad apple or two, but from the last few threads that discuss car sales....you would swear that all sellers are like the corner drug dealer trying to sell you a bag of good sh!t.

Many sellers and also you, from what the people whom you have helped buy a car point, DO have the utmost honest and benevolent attitudes towards making sure the new owner benefits. That is why painting all sellers with the broad brush of dishonesty is unfair.

As a side note:

The Z's prices have been rising slowly and steadily over the years. I recall when I bought mine that getting a $7,000 loan (not what I paid) was only secureable by using both the Z and an Acura Legend as collateral as even the HIGH NADA Price was only $5k or so. Nowdays the values are at $9,950 as the AVERAGE and HIGH is ... $18,325. So it IS getting better.

(http://www.nadaguides.com/default.aspx?LI=1-22-1-5013-0-0-0&l=1&w=22&p=1&f=5014&y=1971&m=1254&d=2208&c=13&vi=79022&z=98685&da=-1)

FWIW, and apologies for the soap box.

E