How much would you pay for a 70-73 Fairlady

[Six_Shooter]

PS is the industry abbreviation for the German language term 'Pferdestärke' ( 'Horse strength' / power ).

Horsepower X 1.01 = PS (Pferdestärke)

PS (Pferdestärke) X 0.986 = Horsepower

Kilowatt X 1.36 = PS (Pferdestärke)

PS (Pferdestärke) X 0.735 = Kilowatt

I've been around cars my entire life, and have read a lot, both main stream and little known, and have never until last night heard of this "industry abbreviation" of "PS".

Link(s) to more information to back up what you are saying?

[sblake01]

I have heard and seen the term over the years. I never really knew much about it other than it being used in other parts of the world. Here's what 'wikki' says:

PS

This unit (German: Pferdestärke = horse strength) is no longer a statutory unit, but is still commonly used in Europe, South America and Japan, especially by the automotive and motorcycle industry. It was adopted throughout continental Europe with designations equivalent to the English "horsepower", but mathematically different from the British unit. It is defined by the Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt (PTB) in Braunschweig as exactly:

1 PS = 75 kp·m/s = 0.73549875 kW = 0.9863201652997627 hp (SAE)

The PS was adopted by the Deutsches Institut für Normung (DIN) and then by the automotive industry throughout most of Europe, under varying names. In 1992, the PS was rendered obsolete by EEC directives, when it was replaced by the kilowatt as the official power measuring unit. It remained in use for commercial and advertising purposes, as customers were not familiar with the use of kilowatts for combustion engines.

[HS30-H]

I've been around cars my entire life, and have read a lot, both main stream and little known, and have never until last night heard of this "industry abbreviation" of "PS".

Link(s) to more information to back up what you are saying?

"Back up" what I am saying........?

It's not me that needs to do the work my friend - it's you. I already took the time to answer your question.

Perhaps it would be more pertinent for me to point out that you obviously haven't read quite as much as you seem to think you have.

[Carl Beck]

Carl,

I'm wondering if you mis-read some of the columns from the original scans?

I'll check them again - but the columns seem to line up in order with the list you provided.

For example - referring to the list you wrote out comparing Fairlady Z and Fairlady Z-L standard equipment with '240Z' standard equipment in post #10 of this thread - you have blanks next to the spaces for FULL CARPET, TINTED GLASS, UNDERHOOD LIGHT, MAP LIGHT and STEERING WHEEL LOCK on the Fairlady Z-L column. All of those items were standard equipment on the Z-L model, and optional on the Z-S.

I believe I stated that they very well could have been Standard on the Z-L, but none of the images you Posted had mention of them one way or the other.

Here are links to the two main threads where I posted scans of some of the original Japanese market sales brochures and tried to explain the options and standard equipment specs:

Japanese market brochure - late 1969 specs: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14422

Japanese market brochure - late 1971 specs: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14501

We discussed quite a lot of things in those threads, so it seems worth referring back to them directly. I put a lot of effort into them if nothing else.

Yes - and I tried to take careful notes - to summarize the information in the theads.

In your post #10 on this thread you posted a table comparing Fairlady Z and Fairlady Z-L specs with a '240Z' specs column ( you explain above that this was a 70/71 US market spec list ) - but it might be fairer and more accurate to look at the later ( ie - late 1971 ) specs for the Japanese models if you are going to compare them to a 1971 north American market spec car, as the Japanese spec was changed and updated during the 69~73 period.

I have done that - and the Standard Equipment on the Z-L seems to be the same.

And if you are going to do that, then perhaps it would be logical and fair to include the three L24-engined variants introduced to the Japanese market in late 1971 too. At that point there were seven distinct S30-series Z variants on the showroom floors in Japan......

I don't know why your comparison of the Fairlady Z and Fairlady Z-L models against that north American market 240Z did not also include the Fairlady Z432 and Fairlady Z432-R models, which were available during the same period. It seems - at the very least - unfair to leave them out.

Alan T.

The brief summary of "Standard Equipment" that I Posted at #10, was intended to answer Kerrigan's question - "what makes it an "L". My understanding was that the "L" had more Standard Equipment than the base model.

I posted only the Fairlady Z to establish the "base model" and the Z-L so Kerrigan could see what was additional, and additional to what.

I posted the 70/71 US spec. so he could compare his car to other US spec. cars around him. He said he had a 1971 model, so that is what I used. Looking at the Late Model 71 brochure - the Standard Equipment on the Z-L seems to be the same.

I was simply trying to answer his specific question - not attempting to write a comprehensive article covering all models and years.

I'm getting ready to leave for the weekend, so will have to stop for now. (I'll be at the Amelia Island Concurs in case anyone else is planing on being there)

I'll review the earlier threads more closely - but a brief scan of the brochures you Posted - in the threads you referred to - still shows no mention of the six items in question (FULL CARPET, TINTED GLASS, UNDERHOOD LIGHT, MAP LIGHT and STEERING WHEEL LOCK) as being Standard Equipment on the Z-L.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[26th-Z]

I'm surprised Six Shooter has never heard of the PS term also.

But I am not surprised with the confusion of what was normally fitted to the S30 model variant and what was "optional". In America, in the begining, the 240 Z was a standardized import with no "options". "Options" as we Americans are acustomed to, were what we call "dealer enhancements" mostly of aftermarket parts. In fact, it can be argued that Datsun was instrumental in the development of the American aftermarket parts business. I know Carl and I go back and forth over the carpeting / rubber mats issue even though my bill of sale clearly states carpeting as a standard feature. I recall trying to establish a connection between the features included in the S30-S model ahd the HLS30 model with no real conclusion. I think it might be pertinent to say that in Japan, the S30 could be ordered with "option" features when this opportunity was not available in America even though the parts catalogs included the "optional" items. Indeed the whole thing is so confusing. Case in point, and I'm certain you will agree Alan; a Japanese customer could order the S30-S model with all the options that would make it an S30 (Z-L) model.

There seems no doubt that Kerrigan has a Z-L model - the delux version. I would comment that it would be shocking to see a Fairlady at a ZCCA judged show in the first place!

I have one question that has not been covered so far. Is the road hazard flashlight (hand held torch) optional or standard? The Z-L I know of in Tampa has the flashlight.

Chris

[HS30-H]

Carl,

Given your previous negative comments about the Fairlady Z and Fairlady Z-L - and indeed just about all of the Japanese home market models in one way or another ( "irrelevant", just an example of Nissan's "vanity" etc etc ) - I find it hard to watch your participation in this thread without expecting some kind of throwaway punch line that damns the cars in comparison to the all-hallowed HLS30-U. Something of a Pavlovian response on my part I admit, but I think quite understandable in the circumstances.

So forgive me if I still find it a bit odd that you are here discussing these details, and answering Kerrigan's question about the 'Z-L' spec - which I was under the impression was at least partially rhetorical, since I had already explained a lot about his car's original specs to him before this thread started.

I believe I stated that they very well could have been Standard on the Z-L, but none of the images you Posted had mention of them one way or the other.

Not all of the standard items are listed on the brochures ( which is where the discussion on those two threads was centred ) so we have to fill in some of the gaps ourselves through our own research. I believe that is the situation in all markets and for all models, is it not?

The table that you wrote out and posted - although obviously well intentioned - was not factually correct, and I just want us to get these things right so that future searches throw up good info rather than misleading info.

The full carpet set, tinted glass, underhood light and map light were standard equipment on the 'Z-L' models ( and extra-cost options on the 'Z' ) when Kerrigan's car was made. The parts lists for that period state that the steering lock was standard on ALL Japanese market models at that time. There are hundreds of other detail differences between the models and my best advice to Kerrigan, or anyone else who wants to know, is to invest in some of the Japanese market parts lists if you want to delve into it a bit deeper.

I was simply trying to answer his specific question - not attempting to write a comprehensive article covering all models and years.

Fair enough.

Have a safe and fun trip this weekend.

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

Case in point, and I'm certain you will agree Alan; a Japanese customer could order the S30-S model with all the options that would make it an S30 (Z-L) model.

Yes, I believe that - theoretically at least - that would have been possible. I can't help thinking that there might have been a catch or two - but then, if somebody actually ordered a fully optioned-up Z-S the factory would probably have built them a Z-L, and told them that this was their 'special' Z-S!

It's all a bit chicken-and-egg, isn't it.

I have one question that has not been covered so far. Is the road hazard flashlight (hand held torch) optional or standard? The Z-L I know of in Tampa has the flashlight.

Standard equipment on all Japanese models from start of production, I believe. The first 'Service Shuho' bulletin in Japan ( November 1969 ) shows it clearly but makes no distinction of applicable models in the way it does with parts not shared between all models.

Have you tried to find the torch and its bracket in the early Japanese parts lists? No trace as far as I am aware.........another head-scratcher.

[WingZr0]

How much would you pay for a 70-73 JDM Fairlady Z, thats already here in the US... Lets say an overall 7 out of 10?

and yes i know there is allot of variables to consider but just give me your estimate.... i'm not asking for the a rocket scientist's guess here.

In general terms of 7 out of 10,

If I had the dough, 5 to 10K.

If I REALLY had the dough, what ever he was asking .

within reason

[Six_Shooter]

"Back up" what I am saying........?

It's not me that needs to do the work my friend - it's you. I already took the time to answer your question.

Perhaps it would be more pertinent for me to point out that you obviously haven't read quite as much as you seem to think you have.

Yeah, that's a good attitude to have.

Instead of being a dink about it, why not post a link or two? This is exactly how flame wars start, one guy that thinks he's the end all be all of information and that everyone should bow to him, nope, I'm not one of those guys that will bow.

I'm quite well read when it comes to automotive, even had some older European books, that seems that would have this information, and have never heard of the term PS in reference to power produced by an engine, KW, yes, for many, MANY years have read that term and can loosly understand it in a quick reference scenario.

So I suggest you step back a bit and humble yourself, because being a dink, like you have been through the entire thread doesn't gain you any friends.

[sblake01]

Yeah, that's a good attitude to have.

Instead of being a dink about it, why not post a link or two? This is exactly how flame wars start, one guy that thinks he's the end all be all of information and that everyone should bow to him, nope, I'm not one of those guys that will bow.

I'm quite well read when it comes to automotive, even had some older European books, that seems that would have this information, and have never heard of the term PS in reference to power produced by an engine, KW, yes, for many, MANY years have read that term and can loosly understand it in a quick reference scenario.

So I suggest you step back a bit and humble yourself, because being a dink, like you have been through the entire thread doesn't gain you any friends.

No. This^ is how flame wars start. Alan answered your question before you asked it. And you asked for proof where none was really needed. What? Do you think he makes this stuff up? Apparently he's already done the research that you need to do. Actually, I like Alan's attutude. He tells it straight and I doubt that he's here to 'gain friends'.

[EScanlon]

... one guy that thinks he's the end all be all of information and that everyone should bow to him, nope, I'm not one of those guys that will bow.

I'm quite well read when it comes to automotive, ...

So I suggest you step back a bit and humble yourself, because being a dink, like you have been through the entire thread doesn't gain you any friends.

I agree with Stephen. It is remarks such as yours that cause a flame war. If that's going to be the extent of your contribution, go someplace else and do it.

It would behoove you to do a bit of research before calling people names, especially when others have already posted that it is a known and accepted term.

Alan's extent of knowledge is such that he has probably forgotten more than many of us know. I won't berate the obvious observation that applies here.

While you may feel you are "quite well read", you may find that you still have a lot more reading to do before you can challenge him. Even if you had been reading since you were in diapers you probably haven't read as much as he has access to, let alone read. Heck, you might be surprised to find out that he may have either written or contributed to some of what you've read.

So, when it comes to stepping back and humbling yourself .... don't trip while you tap dance as you remove your foot from your mouth.

2¢, while respectfully bowing to those that know more about the Z than I do...

E

[76Datsun280z]

I've been enjoying reading about the history of these cars, very informative. Alan, you should write a book!