A 1970 Z car approaches $30 grand!

[Arne]

The starting bid was $29k and I'm surprised there is a reserve on it beyond that point.

I suspect the reserve was set at or near the B-I-N price of $35k.

Its a very nice car, but I guess I am in the minority that thinks $30K for a late 1970 with 50K miles is kind of high, even though it is in very good condition.

Mike, you and I look at this from a much different point of view than most people in the USA. First, we live in a part of the country where 240Zs can still be found fairly easily.

But secondly, and more importantly, both of us already own very nice, low mileage original 240Zs - your red '72, and my red late '71. And neither of us paid anywhere near that much for the ones we already have.

Now I'll grant that the gold car in the auction was lower mileage and nicer than my car, especially underneath. And - unlike my car with it's new paint - that one is still original, not restored or refreshed. To me, that fact alone greatly enhances its value. Add the fact that it is also a "Series 1" (although not a "low-VIN"), plus its East Coast location, and I can certainly see that it should sell for considerably more than what I have in my car now.

$35k? As we all well know, restoring a car to anything approaching the level of this car will cost every bit of that. Because of the expense, very few will ever be done to anything close to this level. And even then, the restored car will be restored, not original.

Bottom line, though, is this - If I didn't have the car I now have and was looking for a really nice 240Z, I really don't think I could talk myself into spending that much for that car. Although 5-10 years from now, it'd be another in my long list of regrets, right up there with selling a clean, original, very nice '63 1/2 Galaxie 500XL hardtop for $600 back in 1975. Should have just stored it away somewhere.

A quick addition - I'd rather spend $35k for an original like this, than for a Program car. FWIW.

[fixitman]

Dio you think the insured value in an agreed value type policy is an indication of market price?

Thanks,

Fixitman

[Mike B]

Arne, you bring up good points and many of the things that you mentioned are what I was thinking about when considering the price: what VZ cars sold for both new and over the last several years, what low VIN cars have sold for, and what both our red cars cost us when we bought them and what they are worth now. Granted I don't have the insight into all of the private sales that someone like Carl does, so my only perspective is what I have seen or spent myself.

If I were going to spend $35K on a Z I would spend it on a VZ car or a very nice and original low VIN car, not a late 1970 with 50K miles. I think the history of the VZ cars and the fact that there are less than 40 of them make them more valuable and I think low VIN cars (the lower the better) that are very original with all the unique parts will increase in value at a quicker rate over time. I agree that you probably can't completely restore a car to the condition this one is in for any less, but that doesn't necessarily mean that if you did you could sell it for that. I think Carl has also made the point that a car with 50K miles is in a bit of a no mans land - not low enough mileage for a "true Collector" and too low to be a driver for many. However, I know that the person that owns this car now is a high end collector, so I guess the mileage thing doesn't not always apply.

My red 72 also has 49K miles, and is as pristine in many ways, but it has a couple of flaws that need to be fixed. Like yours it has had an exterior respray done on it, so I would say that this car is more valuable than ours, but how much of a premium do you put on original exterior paint? I paid quite a bit less than $35k to buy #32 recently and that car also has a couple of flaws that need to be fixed and it has had an exterior repaint. It has about 79K miles, but it is still in excellent condition and very original with almost all the unique early parts. Given the choice between the two I would much rather have #32, but that's just my preference.

-Mike

[Fun_in_my_z]

Sorry to interupt, but what exactly is a VZ car?

[HS30-H]

Just thinking out loud here.........

Title of this thread is "A 1970 Z car approaches $30 grand!", and I'm smiling as I sip my coffee.

Of course, in world market terms the vast majority of North American market S30-series Z cars are still just about the lowest-valued monetarily anywhere.

That's not a judgement of anything other than their average sale prices, and the value of the $US in world currency markets.

Ten years ago, my Fairlady 240ZG already had an 'Agreed Value' insurance figure equivalent to $30,000 on it. In the last ten years it certainly hasn't got any lower. In Japan these days the better 240ZG models are starting to change hands for figures upward of $50,000........... the kind of money that will get you a Fairlady Z432 rebuild project, or the deposit for a loan on a 432-R.

I don't like talking ( or even thinking ) about old cars as "investments" - but if any of us has the ambition to own a good early Z either now or in the near future, I suggest making hay whilst the sun shines.

[AZ-240z]

Sorry to interupt, but what exactly is a VZ car?

VZ references the Vintage Z Program in the late 1990s when Nissan North American outsources the remanufacture of approximately 41 240z cars to several southern California shops. These cars were to be sold at 10 U.S. dealerships starting at around $25,000 and, I believe, it was a promotional program for the eventual successor, the 350Z.

There is much to read if you do a search function for "vintage z program".

Dan

[moonpup]

...snip...Ten years ago, my Fairlady 240ZG already had an 'Agreed Value' insurance figure equivalent to $30,000 on it. In the last ten years it certainly hasn't got any lower. In Japan these days the better 240ZG models are starting to change hands for figures upward of $50,000........... the kind of money that will get you a Fairlady Z432 rebuild project, or the deposit for a loan on a 432-R.

Exactly. And WHY is that? PRODUCTION NUMBERS!

For years I've been telling my friends that the Datsun 240Z will never reach the $$$$ that they were seeing in the "muscle car" market. They just made too damn many of them! I often compared them to the Ford Mustang, another high production model and one that also had a significant impact on automotive history.

Sure there are some early Mustangs that fetch HIGH $ numbers, but those are the limited number examples. Hertz and Shelby just to mention a couple. The plain jane standard 65/66 (excluding convertibles,2+2's, etc.) can still be had fairly cheaply.

Now look at the Hemi Cuda convertible. They produced maybe 9-14 a year for what...maybe 2-3 years. Check on the prices these cars command!

The U.S. model 240Z is in the same boat. Unless there's something special about it such as being an extremely low serial #, an unbelievably low mileage original, unique VZ status or documented race history, you'll never see the big bucks! (unless of course you're hunting in south Texas! )

[Fun_in_my_z]

VZ references the Vintage Z Program in the late 1990s when Nissan North American outsources the remanufacture of approximately 41 240z cars to several southern California shops. These cars were to be sold at 10 U.S. dealerships starting at around $25,000 and, I believe, it was a promotional program for the eventual successor, the 350Z.

There is much to read if you do a search function for "vintage z program".

Dan

Yeah I know some about the program but wasn't thinking I guess.

If the new Z fails or is unpopular in some way, would that hurt the old Z cars value?

[DeesZ]

As Carl stated, the whole thing is a function of supply and demand.... very basic economics.

If there comes a time when people with deep pockets start chasing our cars, then the prices will increase. If not, then don't expect them to increase much beyond basic inflationary trends. One must wonder, will there be much interest in these cars after we all pass on? Likely only with the cream-of-the-crop examples.

[psdenno]

As a general rule, the cars we buy are not good additions to our retirement portfolios. The only people making money on them are the ones who sell parts and provide services. From time to time, as with the Z in this discussion, an amazingly high sale price occurs.

What circumstances generate that price? Low VIN, low miles, limited production, untouched condition, willing buyers in a bidding war? Willing buyers with the "fever" always make the difference.

I have two other cars - a Porsche 914-6 and an Avanti. Only about 3,000 of each were built. They both still sell for very low prices compared to other sports or muscle cars of their time. The old cars that pull big prices are the ones that made the most people drool as kids - the ones that were on posters, in the movies, and available as models to customize. As cool as my '71 Z is, a '71 Jag has a bigger "Cool Car" factor and commands a higher price. We need to learn to enjoy the Z for the pleasure it provides - a feel good investment, not a financial investment.

Dennis

[Poindexter]

I guess that the thought behind my question is primarily why aren't these cars going up in value more, due to their much lower original production figures, their current rate of decay and removal from the road, and then the one area which I think we have some control over- the demand.

I imagine that if more people were actually knew of, and were made aware of the excellent characteristics of these cars- the handling, overall drivability, ability to customize, to name but a few, perhaps there might be more upward pressure on their value. On one hand it's great that there appear to be many very nice, very drivable Z's out there to be had for under $10,000. It's been my impression that the Mustang and Corvette- produced in many multiple of the Z's numbers- still are more highly valued, perhaps I'm completely off in this. I've been told that the same year cars, 69-71, except for specific cars like the Mach 1, or the big block Vette's, do not have significantly higher valuations than most Z's. Maybe there is more latitude in condition for an equivalent value, in the case where rust may be taking more Z's than the other marques. So I guess that more reading and research is in order- to establish exactly what these values really are before I can come to any conclusion.

Perhaps it's just plain ego, hoping for more "respect" for our cars. That's probably the motivating factor. I hate it when people lump all older Japanese cars into the same bundle- that being worthless. This might be an uphill battle, as somebody mentioned. To many (the uninformed) they're just "little Japanese cars", while I believe that they're so much more than that.

And something Carl said made me wonder- "Sports Cars in general have never been a significant part of the total American Automotive Market." That blows my mind, because it's just I would have thought otherwise- but then again I'm not in any position to really know with any certainty. Other than the occasional reading, I have no in depth exposure to the secondary car market, but I did always think that sports cars drove the collector market (sorry couldn't resist the pun ) and perhaps not in the sense of sheer quantity, but certainly in publicity and awareness and appeal to the balance of the non-collecting public, especially as a hobby. Does this mean that it's the 57 Bel Air's and the 62 Lincoln's, and even hot rods that comprise much of the market as Carl has defined it? I really don't know- I want to though.

I'm totally fascinated with these- and a few other- cars. They're part of a type of product that just seem perfect to me, in their own way. Brands and products like Burberry, Brooks Brothers, and Rolex to name a few that have an implicit and very real quality over the long haul- quality regardless of their respective cost or market penetration. And I think that these cars also belong in a special class of vehicle too, represented by what I consider the only undisputed proof- higher valuation.

There are so many great responses in here that I'll have to read them again later when my house empties out and quiets down. It's obviously one of those subjects with no absolute resolution.

[DeesZ]

Back to one of the the original questions in post #1, about "...what is the gold standard of valuation for, say, 240Z's? It can't be mainly ebay auctions."

Honestly, I don't know where other than ebay you will be able to get a better pulse on what people are willing to pay for our cars. There is nowhere else that I am aware of that has the high volume of these vehicles for sale at any given time, and also makes the sale results available to us. (If there was, I think we'd talk about it as much as we all seem to about ebay.) As with most other items on ebay, some of them sell high, and some of them sell low, and that's based largely upon who wants them at any given time.... and it's relatively easy for us to conclude what the average prices are for vehicles in various states of originality by looking at the auction results.

Don't get me wrong here, I love my 240Z (and I loved the one I drove for ten years earlier in my life, but if I had the means, I'd be driving an E-Type or +8. I had a '65 XKE and should have kept it. I can afford the 240Z I now have and enjoy it very, very much, and 'affordability' is a large part of the equation that yields 'enjoyment'. If I was to hit the lottery, my dream garage would shelter a 240Z or two, in addition to an E-Type, an A-H 100-6, a '65 Chevelle Super Sport, a TR-3, a TD, MGA, and a Morgan Plus 8, and a 442.......... but I dream. 'Til then I will be content with my '72 driver.