A 1970 Z car approaches $30 grand!

[Poindexter]

Carl, you are right, again, of course. 40 years experience within a particular marque can't be beat.

I never even figured on the additional costs to secure a replacement vehicle, like sales tax (7% in NJ too) travel to inspect or a local inspector, and transportation for the vehicle. However I do have a friend in California who is one of the premier collector/buyers in the US, shipping to buyers all over the world for almost 25 years. He's my personal shopper, as he got me every one of my cars over the years. So I have the West Coast (rust free) connection for replacement cars hopefully sewn up. This all being conjecture of course, but that's why there's insurance, right?

With premiums being affordable as they are, I made the decision to go for greater agreed value- which I will definitely have to ratchet upwards as I complete my refreshing. Hagerty is in full agreement. I currently have $10k coverage for about $140 (+$40 "membership"). I'd also rather leave all of the financial risk on my insurer by paying slightly higher rates. And everything I've read about Hagerty implies that they are good with covering high-quality repairs.

My other purpose for having 100% coverage (now much less after considering your points) is imagining that a serious accident would no doubt impact ( ) the unit-body, permanently. I doubt that these cars could survive something ( to drive again) with any twisting or serious off-axis impact, like getting wrapped around a pole. Assuming of course that the driver makes it too! Do you have any empirical experience with how Z's survive impacts? The physics are not that great, I'm afraid...it's the 2,300 pounds versus the 4,000s lb thing... and up. F=MA. Survivability is also why I installed a Fiamm triple Ferrari compressor/airhorn setup- after nearly being run over by big SUV's twice in one week. They just don't ever seem to look down. So I rigged a country/city horn switch wiring the airhorns and the neep, neep horns to a 4-way flasher switch as a simple DPST in the hole above the existing flasher. -5 points, I know! They'll definitely hear me coming.

The other thing I have happening lately is when a big truck with airbrakes comes along side, why is it that they always have their air pressure pop-off valve let go right into my left ear? And we're right even with their axles. It's worse than a gunshot. Anyone else have that happen?

[fixitman]

The governor's cut is 7% in NJ.

Fixitman

[26th-Z]

Here is some information that might help to answer the original question and perhaps throw some fuel on the fire:

According to the August 2008 issue of "Collector Car Market Review" a 1970 - 1973 HLS30 is worth

#4 condition - $2,050

#3 condition - $5,175

#2 condition - $8,525

#1 condition - $13,100

Add 5% for air conditioning and subtract 15% for automatic transmission

A 1974 260Z is listed as $1,800, $4,500, $7500, and $11,125 respectively condition 4 to 1. The same percentages are given for A/C and auto trans.

Incidently, the magazine reports that muscle car prices are off about 20% over the last two years and that gains for imports like ours have experienced 4% to 7% over the same period.

[Poindexter]

Thanks 26.

I guess I could look at this 3 ways- among many.

1) The car's value has doubled since new.

2) It's taken nearly 40 years to do so.

3) There are still too many cars less-deserving (yes, in my eyes) who have eclipsed this figure. Damn.

I get very "protective" about these cars, especially in the day of the plastic, disposable car- all of these "indistinguishable soap bar/shoebox cars with raspy exhausts" flooding mall parking lots.

The Z's are such great products in the broad sense of the word. It can be considered a very subjective opinion, one which many here are in agreement with I'd assume- but I'm still incredulous that more people can't define- let alone recognize- what makes up a truly great GT car. Especially as I believe that this segment is one of the most enjoyable to drive.

"Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" summed it up quite well, using the metaphor of a BMW motorcycle rider- who has no idea what makes his bike run, and just wants to go fast and look good. The Triumph rider- ( as I seem to recall) checks his chain flex and tire pressure, changes the oil, and is mechanically knowledgeable - or even more importantly- WANTS to be intimately involved with his machine, needs to be involved, as it's all part of life and experience. The path is as important as the objective- is part of the objective.

I can't imagine another car that so fits the bill for a type of driving that I find is a huge part of my life. I wish more people realized it too. Prices are but one concrete way to track that interest unfortunately.

All hail Mr. K!

[Oiluj]

I guess I'd challenge the "Collector Car Market Review" prices.

Having shopped for a Z in the last year, 8 months ago prices were significantly higher for a #1 or #2 condition car. #3 cars were going for $6 to $8 K here on the left coast, and #2 cars were in the low teens.

I never saw a #1 car, (in person), but the two I saw on the net that might be considerd close to #1 condition were priced and sold for about $18K.

[psdenno]

Poindexter,

Be careful when you play with numbers. The value of my Z may have doubled since I bought it new in 1971. But when you compare the buying power of 2008 dollars to 1971 dollars you also have to factor in 445.67% inflation during that period.

For example, in 1972 I had ARA A/C installed on my Z. The total bill, parts & labor, came to $325. I'm currently in the process of having a new A/C system installed on the same Z. Parts came to a little over $900 and the labor estimate is between $325 and $650 depending on how many hours it actually takes.

In 1972 my annual income was $8,985 so $325 for A/C was a serious chunk of change equal to about two weeks pay. Inflation makes the 2008 numbers a bit more interesting and direct comparisons to the past faulty at best.

Dennis

[Carl Beck]

I guess I'd challenge the "Collector Car Market Review" prices.

Having shopped for a Z in the last year, 8 months ago prices were significantly higher for a #1 or #2 condition car. #3 cars were going for $6 to $8 K here on the left coast, and #2 cars were in the low teens.

I never saw a #1 car, (in person), but the two I saw on the net that might be considerd close to #1 condition were priced and sold for about $18K.

Can you show them to us - on the net?

thanks,

Carl B.

[Poindexter]

Poindexter,

Be careful when you play with numbers. The value of my Z may have doubled since I bought it new in 1971. But when you compare the buying power of 2008 dollars to 1971 dollars you also have to factor in 445.67% inflation during that period.

For example, in 1972 I had ARA A/C installed on my Z. The total bill, parts & labor, came to $325. I'm currently in the process of having a new A/C system installed on the same Z. Parts came to a little over $900 and the labor estimate is between $325 and $650 depending on how many hours it actually takes.

In 1972 my annual income was $8,985 so $325 for A/C was a serious chunk of change equal to about two weeks pay. Inflation makes the 2008 numbers a bit more interesting and direct comparisons to the past faulty at best.

Dennis

Dennis, you are absolutely correct in pointing out the declining value of the dollar (re: inflation, etc.) with respect to my comments. I was actually just making a flippant observation on the "doubling" of the value of a car as a literary device. As has been brought to my attention recently, "replacement cost" with regards to "agreed-value" insurance also has implications way in excess of a simple calculation- in that it should include paying sales tax, inspection and transportation, etc.

In these cases, these mistakes were solely due to my imprecision in wording, and failure to minutely examine the points I was trying to make. I'm usually more precise, and had lazily regarded some of my posts as simple fodder for discussion. But I might as well be right while I'm at it.

Thanks for correcting me. I so appreciate it when I'm shown something new, or equally, when shown an error in my thinking processes. This is especially important around here- with an incredible abundance of knowledge about a myriad of subjects.

Now if I could just learn to be a less wordy SOB, I'd be getting somewhere.

PS- Can anybody post a link to a real #1 car? I don't think I've EVER seen one. I have pix coming in from a collector friend on the West Coast with an original, true rust-free #2 car for sale so I really would love to see more examples of what real 1's, 2's and 3's look like- at least in photos.

[Carl Beck]

I don't have pictures of a #1 Condition 240-Z. Hope to have some by the end of this year...

Here is a #1 Condition 1978 280Z Black Pearl Edition. As I recall it now has something less than 700 miles on it. Always kept in a dehumidified air conditioned display area. A #1 Condition car is clean enough to win a Concours - you won't find a spec of dust under this car.

A #1 Condition car is "as it left the factory" - or actually in the case of our first generation Z's "as it left the showroom floor". (having been PDI'd and detailed after arrival at the Dealership).

In the first picture you can see that the window sticker and dealers supplemental price sticker are still in the window. Everything on this car is original and perfect (except the engine oil and battery) - you will not find a single flaw.

In the second picture - the engine and engine compartment are original and perfect. All bright yellow Cad and Zinc plated parts - are as new. Every hose clamp is original and as new. etc. etc. etc.

BTW - the 1980 280ZX 10th AE in the background is also a #1 condition car.

A true #2 Condition Car would be very close to this - but it would lose a total of 3 or 4 judging points out of a possible hundred, for very minor imperfections. Might lose a couple of points for "over-restoration" compared to a #1 car.

An all original example with say 10K to 20K miles - might lose a point or two because the Yellow Cad or Zinc plating has lost its brilliant shin - but then be awarded a bonus point or two for still having its original parts present in excellent (although not perfect) condition - its up to the judges.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Mike B]

I don't have pictures of a #1 Condition 240-Z. Hope to have some by the end of this year...

So Carl, I take it that the gold car on ebay that was the original subject of this thread is a #2 car then? This car has about 50,000 miles, so I assume some work was done to replate the engine compartment pieces, etc. It looks like it has the replacement Nissan exhaust system that is painted black.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=020&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=300244511260&rd=1

After it didn't sell in the first listing the seller relisted it with a lower BIN of $29,500 and dropped the starting price to $27,000 with a reserve above that. One bid so far, but the reserve is not met yet. I am guessing that it will sell this time.

-Mike

[Carl Beck]

Hi Mike:

Humm..... that's a tough call. It would depend on who was judging it, where it was being judged and what the exact judging criteria were. As I said above, it would most certainly lose some points for minor imperfections - but could gain some for originality if the judging criteria allowed..

To the best of my knowledge no parts were re-plated, and the pictures do not do it justice - you really have to see this car in person. The plating has dulled a bit with use/age.. but everything is still amazingly good for its age.

I know this car, I knew the original owner and I know the owner now - - if the Black Pearl is a #1 car, and a #2 car is only a few points off that - then IMHO this one is a #2 condition car if points are added for originality. Others would be equally justified in giving it a high end #3 rating if points for originality are not awarded.

We have had discussions in the past related to the relative value of a truly "original" car vs one that has been properly "restored". This is a beautifully cared for "original" car.. and it should sell for $30K or something close to that. It will have to sell to someone that places a higher value on "original"... than on perfect...

FWIW,

Carl B.

[psdenno]

I was actually just making a flippant observation on the "doubling" of the value of a car as a literary device.

Which literary device were you using - allegory, dramatic irony, creative license, hyperbole, verbal irony?

Sorry for straying so far off topic...

Getting back on topic....

Would we consider a "fresh" 240Z that just rolled off the assembly line to be a #1 car or would a recently over-restored 240Z be a #1 car? What's the standard?

Dennis