A 1970 Z car approaches $30 grand!

[Carl Beck]

Poindexter,

Be careful when you play with numbers. The value of my Z may have doubled since I bought it new in 1971. But when you compare the buying power of 2008 dollars to 1971 dollars you also have to factor in 445.67% inflation during that period.

Apples to apples - new to as new. $3,850.00 in 1971 x 445.67 = 17,158.30 today - so 2x is $34,316.60. Yep - new vs as new the value of a 71 240-Z has doubled even when keeping up with inflation.

If you have used your Z - and today find that it is only worth $5K, then it has actually cost you $29,316.60 to use it for 37 years. That's $792.34 per year for inflation adjusted depreciation related use. Talk about Economy, Value WOW !!

Playing with the numbers for a 240-Z can really make one feel good!!

FWIW,

Carl B.

[7277]

fwiw carl, i'm a big fan of 'original' cars. they're only that way once. even with the slight wear and tear the gold one shows, it's an beautiful example.....with 50k though.... i'd go $25K for it...25K or less i'd give him asking price.

[psdenno]

Apples to apples - new to as new. $3,850.00 in 1971 x 445.67 = 17,158.30 today - so 2x is $34,316.60. Yep - new vs as new the value of a 71 240-Z has doubled even when keeping up with inflation.

If you have used your Z - and today find that it is only worth $5K, then it has actually cost you $29,316.60 to use it for 37 years. That's $792.34 per year for inflation adjusted depreciation related use. Talk about Economy, Value WOW !!

Playing with the numbers for a 240-Z can really make one feel good!!

FWIW,

Carl B.

OK, playing with the numbers is getting to be fun. The 240Z was so popular in 1971 that there was a nine month waiting list when I bought mine. I was, however, able to jump to the top of the list by paying $4,350 + $174 sales tax. Add on $4.20 for license plates, a $2 transfer fee and a $3 service charge and I was out the door for $4,533.20 according to my dealership invoice paperwork. Oh, to be young again!

Figuring the actual cost of use for 37 years gets a little wonky if we factor in how much I've spent to keep it insured all those years. I haven't kept insurance records, but I'm sure I could buy a fairly nice Z today for the thousands of dollars I've mailed off to my insurance company over the years. I'm not regretting a moment of those 37 years of ownership or the cost of the "refresh" that's currently being accomplished. You can't put a price on the miles of smiles.

Dennis

[lonetreesteve]

Here is some information that might help to answer the original question and perhaps throw some fuel on the fire:

According to the August 2008 issue of "Collector Car Market Review" a 1970 - 1973 HLS30 is worth

#4 condition - $2,050

#3 condition - $5,175

#2 condition - $8,525

#1 condition - $13,100

Add 5% for air conditioning and subtract 15% for automatic transmission

A 1974 260Z is listed as $1,800, $4,500, $7500, and $11,125 respectively condition 4 to 1. The same percentages are given for A/C and auto trans.

Incidentally, the magazine reports that muscle car prices are off about 20% over the last two years and that gains for imports like ours have experienced 4% to 7% over the same period.

Here are the links to Collector Car Market Review that Chris was talking about. Obviously, 240Z values are all over the board. Just a little over a year ago I sold my #3 condition '71 918 Orange for just under $15k.

http://www.collectorcarmarket.com/menus/ccmprcs/70da240z.htm

http://www.collectorcarmarket.com/menus/ccmprcs/71da240z.htm

http://www.collectorcarmarket.com/menus/ccmprcs/72da240z.htm

http://www.collectorcarmarket.com/menus/ccmprcs/73da240z.htm

[Oiluj]

Can you show them to us - on the net?

thanks, Carl B.

Sorry Carl, I no longer have the link for one and the other the link is dead...

However, after reading the your definintion of #1 condition, I would probably rate both the cars as a strong #2.

They were both high quality partial restorations of original condition cars. Based on the pics I'd guess they were 85 to 90 point cars. (Of course pictures can hide minor flaws). They were low mileage, (about 50K & 75K miles), with clean undercarriages, glossy paint, perfect interiors and no evident rust. They even had the original exhaust systems in visually excellent condition. Both cars had spent most of thier lives in dry storage.

Last year I offered $18k for one and $16.5k for the other and lost both to car collectors. If I had offered more I'd probably be driving my 240z today without having to do any work.

Restoration of my current 240z (including purchase price), will cost me about $25K and it will not be as "perfect" as either of those cars. However, my driver will have upgraded brakes & suspension, Rebello engine upgrade and a few extras. These upgrades total about $6.5k, so it's not a true apples-to-apples comparison.

I would have loved to own either car, though in 20-20 hindsight, I'm glad to be restoring my current car to the way I want it...

[Poindexter]

Which literary device were you using - allegory, dramatic irony, creative license, hyperbole, verbal irony?

Sorry for straying so far off topic...

Getting back on topic....

Would we consider a "fresh" 240Z that just rolled off the assembly line to be a #1 car or would a recently over-restored 240Z be a #1 car? What's the standard?

Dennis

It was my faculty for verbal diarrhea. Perhaps exploitation of dramatic irony. :cheeky: And that $3 service fee was a rip-off, and I wouldn't have paid it.

As far as Z's go- IMHO I believe that the ultimate state of a car to be "as originally delivered." This is supposedly a once-in-a-lifetime state. The old saying about a car being able to be restored many times but original only once best portrays how I feel. It also is increasingly difficult to maintain a nearly 40-year old car in "showroom" condition. I also feel that there should be- if there already is not- a class strictly for original cars- specifically NOT over-restored. As much as I admire and enjoy looking at these glossy shiny older cars with dozens of new but OEM parts, I feel that they're missing the patina that represents the passage of time, and shows that they've been maintained well enough to not require parts replacement with shiny, matching new zinc- for example. Were these cars ever so shiny that way anyway? There will always be a place for a magnificently restored car, but my heart lies with the unmolested versions most.

BTW, that 920 Gold Z on ebay has been withdrawn anyway. I'd liked to have seen how it traded.

[xray]

Puh-leez....

If anyone offered 13k for a #1 condition Z, and was actually serious about it, they'd be laughed off the stage, mocked or possibly tarred and feathered.:stupid: The Zs I've tracked on Ebay have all sold in the high teens to low 20s, and they are 3+ to 2- condition (Can't attach *.htm files or I'd provide info--sorry)

But.... if someone's willing to sell me their #1 240Z for 13k I can cut them a check right now.

[mally002]

Ditto Steve, my check books ready to go all day long at $13k for a #1 car.

FYI.......Several months back my car went for $11,000 and it was a #3 car, Thus going much higher than the CCMR values.

[MEZZZ]

I don't have pictures of a #1 Condition 240-Z. Hope to have some by the end of this year...

Here is a #1 Condition 1978 280Z Black Pearl Edition. As I recall it now has something less than 700 miles on it. Always kept in a dehumidified air conditioned display area. A #1 Condition car is clean enough to win a Concours - you won't find a spec of dust under this car.

A #1 Condition car is "as it left the factory" - or actually in the case of our first generation Z's "as it left the showroom floor". (having been PDI'd and detailed after arrival at the Dealership).

In the first picture you can see that the window sticker and dealers supplemental price sticker are still in the window. Everything on this car is original and perfect (except the engine oil and battery) - you will not find a single flaw.

In the second picture - the engine and engine compartment are original and perfect. All bright yellow Cad and Zinc plated parts - are as new. Every hose clamp is original and as new. etc. etc. etc.

BTW - the 1980 280ZX 10th AE in the background is also a #1 condition car.

A true #2 Condition Car would be very close to this - but it would lose a total of 3 or 4 judging points out of a possible hundred, for very minor imperfections. Might lose a couple of points for "over-restoration" compared to a #1 car.

An all original example with say 10K to 20K miles - might lose a point or two because the Yellow Cad or Zinc plating has lost its brilliant shin - but then be awarded a bonus point or two for still having its original parts present in excellent (although not perfect) condition - its up to the judges.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Thanksor posting those pix of the Balck Pearl Carl, that engine shot is amazing! I never had any idea my motor would have looked like that at one time

Obviuosly, judging from the background and a partial shot of the gold car, these cars are all owned by the same person? Since you know him, can you ask him if he would be willing to adopt me?

[26th-Z]

Here are but a few number one cars to show. I have plenty more examples. It would be pretty hard to dispute them. Certainly, Carl's example is a number one. The guy's whole collection is nothing short of number one examples. I don't understand the hesitation. Perhaps your "standard" is a little over the top, Carl. The whole 1, 2, 3, 4 thing is a basic standard for evaluation. It does not encompass "how it left the factory", "all original unrestored", yadda- yadda. Those standards are superimposed and have nothing to do the values published in the magazine. I don't necessarily agree with the values in the magazine, but there they were.

Incidently, the red car is the most awarded Z in America. I am not aware of any other Z in the world that has won more top honors than that one. The orange car is the Franklin Mint car.

[Carl Beck]

Here are but a few number one cars to show. I have plenty more examples. It would be pretty hard to dispute them. Certainly, Carl's example is a number one. The guy's whole collection is nothing short of number one examples. I don't understand the hesitation. Perhaps your "standard" is a little over the top, Carl. The whole 1, 2, 3, 4 thing is a basic standard for evaluation.

Hi Chris:

I don't use, nor do I recommend any "basic standard for evaluation". Doing so would simply lead to confusion, such as using modified cars as examples of #1 Condition Classics.

The Condition Category definitions I use, and which I usually try to make clear - are from Kruse's "Old Cars Price Guide". Over the 40+ years I've been buying, selling, restoring Classic, Collectible and Special Interest automobiles - the most commonly used definitions of vehicle condition among Classic Car Collectors that I have seen, is that published by Kruse.

See: http://zhome.com/Buying/OldCarsPriceGuide.htm

It does not encompass "how it left the factory", "all original unrestored", yadda- yadda.

Kruse uses the word "restored" as it is defined in any dictionary, they farther define the #1 & #2 Condition Categories as including "perfect or excellent original". Both "restored" and "perfect or excellent original" indicate that the standard is "as new" - - not as modified...

Modified Cars - would not be covered by Kruse's condition definitions nor covered in their value guide. I do not know what value guide one would use for modified cars.

Those standards are superimposed and have nothing to do the values published in the magazine. I don't necessarily agree with the values in the magazine, but there they were.

By "in the magazine" I take it you mean the "Collector Car Market Review" magazine you referenced.

If that is the case - I would suggest that you read their definitions that apply to their Condition Guidelines. Again we see "Perfect Original" and "well restored"...

- - - - - -- Quote - --

Collector Car Market Review

Condition Guidelines

These are condition guidelines to help assess a vehicle's condition. Keep in mind that there are many factors that affect value. For example, a "barn find" may on the surface look like a #4 or #5 vehicle, but it's time capsule quality means it is worth more than it's condition would usually warrant.

#1 Excellent: A close to perfect original or a very well restored vehicle. Generally a body-off restoration, but a well done body-on restoration that has been fully detailed may qualify. The vehicle is stunning to look at and any flaws are trivial and not readily apparent. Everything works as new. All equipment is original, NOS, or excellent quality reproductions. (See show car description in How to Use section.)

#2 Very Good: An extremely presentable vehicle showing minimal wear, or a well restored vehicle. Runs and drives smooth and tight. Needs no mechanical or cosmetic work. All areas (chassis not required) have been fully detailed. Beautiful to look at but clearly below a #1 vehicle.

#3 Good: Presentable inside and out with some signs of wear. Not detailed but very clean. Body should be straight and solid with no apparent rust and absolutely no rust-through anywhere. Shiny, attractive paint but may have evidence of minor fading or checking or other imperfections. Runs and drives well. May need some minor mechanical or cosmetic work but is fully usable and enjoyable as is.

#4 Fair: runs and drives OK but needs work throughout the vehicle. Body shows signs of wear or previous restoration work. Any rust should be minimal and not in any structural areas. Cosmetics, body, and mechanics all need work to some degree.

#5 Poor: In need of complete restoration, but is complete and not a rust bucket beyond repair. May or may not run. Not roadworthy.

Parts or Salvage: Incomplete vehicle most useful for parts. Generally, take 50-60% of the #5 value.

- - - - - -- END Quote - --

The Franklin Mint car very well could be a #1 car - likewise the Yellow Vintage Z ... however modified cars would not be within the category as defined.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Poindexter]

Jeez, the Red and the Franklin cars are so shiny it hurts my eyes! What the hell do they use for polish, liquid mercury?

Seriously! That has to be clearcoat.

My problem is that I would want to drive that car too much. A #1 can not be driven at all I'm sure.