A 1970 Z car approaches $30 grand!

[HS30-H]

Alan- Was he NOT significantly responsible for bringing this car to America, or demanding that it meet certain specifications that would make it more desirable to the US market? Was this car not a labor of love? Was he not a sports car aficianado, with special affection for the Jaguar and Porsche, among others?

Perhaps his position in the company was imaginary? I don't understand your point. Please be so kind as to provide your viewpoint and understanding as to the errors of my perception.

No, really - I'm not saying that your perception is wrong per se. I was asking about the origins and roots of that perception. I don't agree with it completely, but that is a curious combination of our different points of reference and the lack of exposure - on my part - to the phenomenon of Katayama being presented as he is ( and was ) in the USA.

As I have said many times before, I think the promotion of Katayama as a kind of automotive deity obscures an even bigger story, and causes other interesting and pivotal figures to be completely overlooked. I find it particularly regrettable to see Katayama - on film - saying "....I designed it....".

"The Datsun 240Z began its lifespan back in 1966, when a new sports-car design was created by Fumio Yashida's design team at Nissan. It caught the attention of Yutaka Katayama. "Mr. K" was responsible for Nissan's West Coast operations in the U.S. and he was convinced an affordable GT would sell big in America. Yashida's design was just the thing. Katayama insisted on a closed car, not a convertible -- "easier to get into the market" -- and a two-seater only, not a GT. When the new Datsun sports car finally appeared in the fall of 1969, there was no lack of midpriced European competition, but the sports car would offer Porsche performance and Jaguar style at a fraction of the cost. At home it was called the Fairlady Z, but in the U.S., it would be the Datsun 240Z. "

I believe you got that quote here: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/nissan-z-history2.htm

A good example of rogue information being used ( innocently ) as reference. I don't know where they got the name "Fumio Yashida" ( sic ) and I suppose they must have meant Akio Yoshida, who was one of the largely unrecognised design staff working on Chief Designer Yoshihiko Matsuo's team. Maybe we should be thankful that they mentioned someone other than Katayama, even if they got the wrong guy and spelled his name incorrectly. This is part of what I'm talking about.

And...???? Why so cryptic?

I honestly wasn't being cryptic in my questions to you. The post I made in response to the yellow car is a kind of in-joke based on something that Katayama's former secretary has said on film; something that I personally find risible, but beside the point here.

I think it is worth looking closely at Katayama and his life story, and sorting out the fact from the fiction. There is absolutely no doubt of his enormous significance ( in many scenarios - not just that of the S30-series Z ) but this was most certainly not a one man show.

Alan T.

[Poindexter]

I actually never said nor implied that Mr. K did anything other than support and even champion the introduction of the Z car in the US. A benchmark occasion IMHO. For this reason, and this reason only I and tens of thousands of others on this continent are profoundly appreciative. This concept is based on extensive and protracted reading on the subject from a multitude of sources. I've actually never heard that Mr. K had ever ascribed to himself any serious contribution to the penning of the car.

Nothing is ever a one-man show. I've never imagined it otherwise and I think it's a mistake on your part to consistently imply that there is a dearth of comprehension that all Americans possess on all things Z. I apologize, but it does come across as a bit smug. Perhaps your isolation on a small island is colouring your thoughts and limiting your perceptions about us colonials? Isn't the whole universe orbiting the US?

But it certainly can be said that without the efforts of certain people, key events might not have happened. That's all I meant. Idol (not idle) speculation is kind of fun, anyway...

[HS30-H]

I actually never said nor implied that Mr. K did anything other than support and even champion the introduction of the Z car in the US. ...............

............. This concept is based on extensive and protracted reading on the subject from a multitude of sources.

No longer including the likes of that 'howstuffworks.com' article you quoted, one hopes.

I've actually never heard that Mr. K had ever ascribed to himself any serious contribution to the penning of the car.

You have not seen that film clip of him saying "....I designed it..." then? It was a US-made show on the subject of the Z. I don't recall that any other Japanese name other than Katayama's was mentioned. There are clips of the show on the 'net. I must bookmark them for reference. This is not the only example, of course.

Nothing is ever a one-man show. I've never imagined it otherwise and I think it's a mistake on your part to consistently imply that there is a dearth of comprehension that all Americans possess on all things Z. I apologize, but it does come across as a bit smug.

Well, thanks.

I've complained that there's a 'dearth of comprehension ....... on all things Z' generally, but perhaps you can be forgiven for noticing only the bits aimed at "Americans". Especially if your main point of reference is this forum..........

Perhaps your isolation on a small island is colouring your thoughts and limiting your perceptions about us colonials? Isn't the whole universe orbiting the US?

http://www.passionateamerica.com/pictures/american-world-450x315.jpg

[26th-Z]

Was he NOT significantly responsible for bringing this car to America, or demanding that it meet certain specifications that would make it more desirable to the US market? Was this car not a labor of love? Was he not a sports car aficianado, with special affection for the Jaguar and Porsche, among others?

Seth,

No. He was NOT significantly responsible. Here are some photos of what was being produced in the Nissan design department in 1966. The bottom photo is concept AC-1 which went to full scale mock-up along with other concepts in 1967. One of those concepts had pop-up headlights and another was a targa top configuration. Nissan had experienced some success by marketing their roadster sports cars in America and the corporation was interested with increasing their exports to America and replacing their aging design. In addition, American law was demanding significant roll-over cash protection which devistated the open top roadster concept.

Mr. Katayama had established a very solid market and dealer network program in America. He was certainly influencial by his marketing reports and suggestions, but Nissan was clearly headed for the export market with their new sports car design. If one would hail Mr. Katayama, one would appreciate his work marketing the Datsun brand in America. He is most noted for introducing the concept of the small pick-up truck to America. Mr. Katayama was indeed a sports car fan and credit goes to him for providing the cars to various racing enterprises. (Brock, Sharp) But put the guy on the proper pedestal for cryin out loud! He was a marketing man. He took something he thought he could sell and made a success out of it because he had the dealer network and reputation already established.

[Poindexter]

I guess I feel foolish for allowing a "marketing man" to apparently put forth a canon of inconsistencies, distortions and falsehoods- for which I have evidently fallen victim to.

There is nothing more important to me than the truth- except perhaps personal honor- but aren't they linked? There's an old saying that I really like- "When 3 people you respect tell you you're dead, grab the lilies and lay down already."

I feel sheepish having been "marketed to." I can't state it any other way, except perhaps to use the words "lied to." I feel that I'm usually quite immune to the pitchman. I can't remember when I've ever "bought" something- sight unseen- from marketing patter, be it a product or information- and by these comments, THIS information is DIS-information. This apparently qualifies as one of those times that, by all recent appearances, I've been taken in and have accepted as fact some things that are not so.

Therefore I must get to the bottom of this. Can anybody please suggest a book or 2 that details the "true" story of the Z car, with specific focus on how it was introduced and promoted in the US of A? A book that is respected by those who would know, having undergone their own trials of understanding, and having put the details through the crucible of truth and peer-review. I realize that the car was marketed nearly around the world, so additional details of the multinational effort would be helpful too, but I understand the best book about the US effort might not have the scope to cover the whole world too.

I guess I've fallen prey to the need for putting SOMEBODY up on a pedestal, for picking somebody on who's head I would like to place a laurel honoring what I consider to be *one of* the most impressive and personally important vehicles in motoring history- which can be argued too of course. In the US there is obviously a long history of coming up with a single "Father" of a myriad of products and concepts, be it the "Father" of the transistor, the Father of the Z car or the Father of the cheese steak. Simplistic at best I know but it does provide for an outlet for our obvious need for heroes, which is part of our culture. The champion, the hero, the person we can honor. BTW, this goes equally for the "goat", the person we need to blame for something. I guess this is really a universal concept. In a more perfect world these choices would be more apparent and less bound by mysticism.

I would greatly appreciate being better informed about the history of something so important, and if I've come across as pedantic I heartily apologize. "Poindexter" was a know-it-all but I'd hate to offer up only the negative aspects of that character name. I truly do want to know the truth and the whole truth, and also where the BS and distortions lie too.

[Carl Beck]

Carl,

I happen to subscribe to "Old Cars", have for years, and it has nothing to do with Kruse the auctioneers. It's KRAUSE, not Kruse.

Oops... my bad... left the "a" out.

I'm lead to suspect you have nipped something off the internet without understanding it.

From your following Post - I am lead to suspect that you do not understand the difference between the "Krause Old Cars Weekly News and Market Place" and the "Krause Old Cars Price Guide".

If you re-read my previous post - you will see that I specified "Old Cars Price Guide".

I'm also left wondering if you subscribe to Krause "Old Cars Weekly News and Market Place" why you bother quoting numbers from ""Collector Car Market Review" in the first place.

I notice that your definitions are abridged; on you site as well as in these threads. How about if we use the unabridged definitions. Always. Wouldn't you imagine less confusion from that manner? Certainly your opinion is appreciated.

I have included a scan of the page out of the "Old Cars Price Guide" that provides the definitions(see below). As you can see, I have used the exact words as published (any typo's excepted).

Your confusion is caused by using the wrong reference. I can't do much about that, except to suggest that you re-read my previous Post, where I specified "Old Cars Price Guide".

However, modified cars are most certainly part of the collector market and the guidelines are written specifically if you understand the grammar and punctuation.

I believe I understand the grammar and punctuation, but I'm afraid the misunderstanding in this case is due to the fact that you seem to be looking at, and quoting, the wrong publication. Wrong in the sense that it is not the reference I used.

I do agree that you will find modified cars in the market - I tried to make it clear however, that the Condition Ratings I use, were as published in the "Old Cars Value Guide" - and that they applied to stock, original and/or restored examples.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[psdenno]

I would greatly appreciate being better informed about the history of something so important, and if I've come across as pedantic I heartily apologize. "Poindexter" was a know-it-all but I'd hate to offer up only the negative aspects of that character name. I truly do want to know the truth and the whole truth, and also where the BS and distortions lie too.

Welcome to the World, Poindexter. No matter how much any of us may know, there's ALWAYS someone who knows more - ALWAYS. Tough lesson to learn, suck it up.:surprised

So, look on the bright side and start buying all the Z books you can find, collect the dealer literature, go to the club events in your area, have fun, and enjoy the Datsun Hobby, not the Datsun Religion. And most of all, remember that a preposition is not something to end a sentence with.

Dennis

[Poindexter]

Dennis- I count on the fact that there will always be people out there with much more knowledge than I. "Learn from the mistakes of others so you won't be doomed to repeat them" kind of thing. Learning is one of my favorite things. It's how I was raised, thankfully. As an aside, I wish I had not missed the lessons on brevity. So I've always valued every opportunity to pick the brains of somebody with extensive experience in an area where I have much to learn. Especially in the area of history. For example, both my Father and many of his friends were a source of incredible recollections about pivotal moments in world history- the wars of the 20th Century. It's one of the areas I study most- the positive and negative responses and lessons learned from how people act and react during the most overwhelmingly stressful moments in our time. We can learn so much by observing how people act under the direst of circumstances, IMHO. This data can then be incorporated into our own behaviors and actions, leading to better performance under whatever "fire" one may be under.

So I am certainly hard-wired to accept advice, knowledge and more importantly- to *learn* from these experiences- be they in war or peace, about crucial life-altering events- or "mere" recreational activities. So I'm neither threatened by people with more knowledge than me nor surprised either. IMO they are an irreplaceable resource. I count on my willingness to use the experience of others to increase my ability to deal with (and enjoy) the world as we interact with it. However I still would be faced with the complications of being confronted by the overwhelming volume of incorrect information- with respect to which books to read. I would hope that there are some people around this board who are respected for their incredible wealth of knowledge, and can steer me towards the more accurate reporting. Life is too short to waste further time reading books with inaccurate information- or worse- writings that are slanted in a propaganda-like manner to promote falsehoods for personal aggrandizement or material gain.

Regarding your comments about prepositions, where are you going to?

[Zup]

NISSAN/DATSUN

A History of Nissan Motor Corporation in U.S.A., 1960-1980

by John B. Rae

Mc Graw-Hill Book Company

C 1982

ISBN 0-07-051112-8 $19.95

This book presents a clear and accurate record of Nissan Motor Corporation in U.S.A. and describes the impact of their cars and trucks on the U.S. market. It is a book with many facts and will appeal to people interested in:

*automotive history

*marketing stategy

*the entire automotive import market

and, of course, those who wish to learn about Nissan itself.

Written by John B. Rae "the dean of automotive historians".

One of my most cherished possessions, my copy includes a "Dear Fellow Employee" letter that is dated November of 1981, with the hand signature of Tetsuo Arakawa, President of Nissan Motor Corporation in U.S.A.

It was not intended for me, but is a telling of the attitudes of Nissan U.S.A., and a great read of factual automotive history.

Highly recommended.

Jim D.

"Zup"

[Mike B]

Alan has also previously recommended "DATSUN Z - Fairlady to 280Z" by Brian Long - VELOCE ( ISBN 1-901295-02-8 ). Per Alan, "Most of the English-language books on the history / design etc of the S30-series Z contain mistakes and factual errors ( but Brian Long's book is better than most in this respect ), not least of these being the perpetuation of the shocking lie about who really designed the S30-series Z."

Unfortunately, for those of us that don't read Japanese, it appears that much of the most accurate reference material is not readily available to us.

-Mike

[westpak]

It has been a while since I read "Z-Car - Revival of a Legend" in which a lot of it is in Mr K's words, but I don't recall him taking credit for the design of the Z, my impression was that he was responsible for the dealership networking and marketing of Datsun and the Z in the US. And he takes more credit in picking the right people to help him rather than taking credit for doing it himself.

I am going to have to read it again, it is a short read.

Front cover

Back cover

[Poindexter]

I guess this is more like it- Z #1732 on ebay - item # 190238850648 with 18 hours left at this point. $7,300 with the reserve not reached as of yet. Whether it represents a good value or not- we'll see what it goes for, and I'll leave that comment up to those with experience observing values in the Z marketplace. Reading your comments is a great way to learn this market.

Typical range of problems, but looks nice. White over blue. I imagine that this is representative of an above-average car out there now- but is this clean enough to be a rarity? If mechanically sound, and safe (no dangerous frame, suspension, electrical, brake issues, etc...) I would have no problem driving it around. In front of people even!

I like seeing cars in this condition- especially compared to the rat-traps I see most of the time, and one that's (hopefully) easily made into a good driver, or perhaps with sufficiently good enough bones to really deserve a shot at a more serious preservation, whether that's a restore or a refresh.

And a belated thanks to the book recommendations. I will certainly check them out. I've been so busy working on major weatherstripping replacement issues- which might warrant their own comment thread. I seem to have found a very economical method to replace both hatch strips with something perhaps better than stock and for around 75% less.