A 1970 Z car approaches $30 grand!

[Carl Beck]

From the pictures and sellers description - - - it looks like a pretty nice Series I 240Z.

If he bought the car in California in 1992 - needing a head gasket replaced - he more than likely paid $1,200.00 or less at 57K miles.

Very low engine serial number for that VIN range. This would have the 6 rather than 8 counterweighted crank. (AIR it was 6 vs 8)..

Euro Spec. Springs - notice how high the car is sitting.

Is it clean enough to be a rarity? - - No. But it is getting rare to see basically stock, basically original cars offered for sale in this condition. They used to be plentiful on the West Coast, but as the current price reflects - they are no longer plentiful.

I would not call this car "ideal" for restoration - - If you were going to do a full restoration you wouldn't need a car in this good a condition - because your going to strip the car down to nothing anyway.. On the other hand, if you can afford to pay an extra $5K for a car to start a restoration - why not? This would most likely be fun to work on.. This would be a "very nice" car to have as the basis for a refresh or restoration....

IF - IF - IF

If one was looking for a 240-Z that they could drive and enjoy as is - with the thought of some day doing a very nice "refresh" or even a full restoration - anything under $10K today for a car like this is a very reasonable price. (if the car is actually as good as the pictures and the the sellers tells us etc.etc.).

Big PLUS for East Coast buyers - is the fact that its in MI rather than out on the West Coast... Fly in and drive it home from there. On the Great Lakes - one might be able to load it on a ship at one of the Ports - for Europe or GB delivery as well.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

Sold for $9982.00.... If it is as represented, someone made a reasonable purchase. Three years from now it will look like a very good deal indeed.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[bigoak]

Actually, reserve not met...maybe not the awesome deal...

[Carl Beck]

Oh.. didn't notice that... the seller should accept the high bid... lets hope he had the reserve at $10K...

[Poindexter]

First- was the low serial number of the engine indicative of a non-matching numbers car, and how much does this lower the end price of a nicely refreshed car- imagining this one as a donor? (Note- Just noted that owner stated that all numbers match)

I that vein, let's create a class of Z's called "clean, slightly dingy, but apparently *relatively* unmolested, with non-original paint". I'm imagining a range of vehicles that can be made easily enough into a nice driver, or alternately refreshed.

As you said Carl, for a complete restoration even a cheaper, lower-quality car would be better for a ground-up restoration. So I'm trying to imagine a bottom-line standard for what constitutes a nice source car for *other than ground-up restoration*, or making one into a nice DD. Does this make any sense? I'm actually thinking ahead to "retirement" and I honestly think I'd like to restore Z's as my money-producing- as opposed to money-consuming- hobby.

By trade, I'm a design/build contractor now, so I normally tend towards creating an organization with subspecialties around a clearly-defined work project. And since I have rediscovered my love for these cars, I can't imagine anything more enjoyable, as I consider these cars rolling art. So the first step is- for me- defining the standards for cars to enter into this process with an eye towards sourcing them. The repair/refreshing/restoration process is actually fairly defined already- as opposed to finding them, IMHO!

Luckily I have my collector friend on the West Coast who has been the source of many a superbly clean, rust-free car over the years for me.

[Poindexter]

Well, I have Z-Car Revival ordered, as well as the Datsun-Z book by Brian Long. I could have bought a new mirror for what the Long book cost- but it comes highly recommended.

This whole thread- to me- has been leading to answering one question- more or less. Besides the unknowables, like general demand in the market, how do the details- or lack thereof- relate to desirability, in monetary terms, and correctness, as relates to judging- and are they related? I hope I'm making myself clear here. What's my best bang for the buck I guess.

With so many smaller part "details" to be done on these cars to bring them up to higher standards, like proper hose clamps, hoses, wiring, dash parts, bolts, etc. can anybody make a stab at listing the items that have the biggest bang for the buck? You know how in home renovation they say that a pool will return you, say 80%, a new bathroom perhaps 90%, a new kitchen 100%....is there any equivalent in the Z world? Not including the big buck items, like paint or carpet. The smaller things that can be done in an evening for example.

With literally dozens of the smaller (dollar-wise) pieces to replace, cosmetically- as I do have every bolt and clamp functional, but mostly the "wrong" ones, where should I begin? After seeing all of this shiny new zinc on most of the cars we've discussed here, I just want to buy a huge bag of bolts and start wrenching.

I know this questions begs to know what's wrong with my car, but let's simply assume that all of these smaller items are intact, but not correct for this version. These items are each only a small amount of money, and each are in themselves a quick job, but they all add up to being right in the end after lots of these smaller efforts, and in the final analysis, they do end up making the car more period correct, and thereby more valuable- and to a lesser extent- they make the car rate higher in judging too. Or is this an incorrect argument for replacing the smaller items, like bolts, clamps, etc...?

I just don't want to start worrying about buying and installing tons of these smaller items that in the end don't mean much- to miss out on the more important things.

BTW, that white Z in Texas, the one supposedly restored by Courtesy, ebay item 250273972425, sold for $16,600. I'm trying to figure out why one car will sell for $7,000 and another for $17,000.

[AggieZ]

My Z car is approaching 20 grand... and it still in pieces in the garage.

Restored Z cars are definitly undervalued.

[Poindexter]

How did you arrive at that determination AggieZ?

I'm in the process of revaluing my car with Hagerty. As Carl reminded me, there are lots of costs involved in replacing a Z car- especially one as rust-free and original as mine. Potentially a trip to view a car, trucking/transportation, sales tax again, mechanics' inspection fees...all on top of the cost of the car.

I "only" have it covered for $10k. It could potentially cost me thousands more than that just to procure one in equivalent shape.

I'm trying to work out some equation for comparing restored car valuation versus original cars with small defects- obviously. Like when is an original car worth as much as a restored car even with small deficiencies- because of the "original" factor, and even more important to me now- do I do any work that replaces original parts with new- like shiny, new zinc/cad (whatever) plated bolts?

A puzzlement.

Edited August 7, 2008 by Poindexter

[AggieZ]

Poindexter,

I think you dont understand what I'm saying.... the money I've spent restoring/modifying this Z is approaching 20K. I didnt mean to imply that its value is approaching 20K. Even if I was offered 30K for this car when I'm done, it would be refused.

Unless the market changes, you can expect to sell a Z for about what you have put into it in parts. Your labors are valueless for resell value... typically.

I knew this going in. I am doing it anyway. I'm happy I did. I will be much happier when its done. It will definitely be a very good 240Z.... and it will be mine. :classic:

[Poindexter]

Ah, ok AggieZ, I thought when you said "My Z car is approaching 20 grand" you meant current value.

I'd love for mine to be worth even that, and some day it might, but I've *only* had to put in around $5k worth of work/parts as I didn't want- or really need- to change much, so another measure of value is called for, for mostly original cars I think. What I've been trying to do here is understand what makes one car worth $10k and another apparently similar worth $20k or more, and if by doing work on such an original car, trying to "improve" her, I'm really ruining the value of "originality" in the first place!

She just this week turned 70,000 miles- barely broken in- so most of the work was voluntary and preventative, like tie-rods, ball joints, all hoses and only about half of the weatherstripping, new braided steel brake lines, calipers and brakes all around, just the basic wear points and safety issues. All that's left to do is to press out a few small dents, touch-up a few square inches of paint, re-do the seats and re-install of existing all original diamond vinyl and carpeting after I remove the horsehair and replace it with various butyl sound & heat barrier materials along the tunnel and throughout the entire interior- from firewall to hatch, and inside the doors and behind the interior paneling- just to snug everything down and take away any remaining rub or rattling inside.

Everything else is untouched except for the new plug wires just changed from the original set in May, and a new Ferrari airhorn- for self-defense purposes only. I also have the old radio and speakers in reserve, so I can always drop them back in, but I have an aftermarket unit in for now so I have some decent sounds, since I drive her a lot.

Really not much more "big stuff" to do to bring her to a very nice, very clean, and still very original condition. That's why I'm wondering whether I should do some of the busy work- like cleaning up the engine compartment and changing out all of the bolts and hose clamps to shiny and new- will it actually ruin the patina and the bona fides of being all original? I doubt I'll ever have her judged, as there is dash a half cap- albeit a perfect one. I just don't know. I'd kind of like to display her more around other Z's, at least for comparison. I go to at least 2 local Cruise-Ins a week, but I'm usually the only Z there.

I guess I answered my own question.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Poindexter

[full house]

My Z car is approaching 20 grand... and it still in pieces in the garage.

Restored Z cars are definitly undervalued.

interesting! I wanna see some photos of it!

[jtmader]

I know myself as an owner of a 1972 VZ (actually 37 produced) and an early (vin # 238)mint condition '69 production 240Z that I expect the value of these vehicles will dramatically increase in the next 5 - 10 years. I paid big dollars for these 240's (in the $30K range) but was presented with an opportunity to own them and couldn't pass it up. I hope the values do go up (as I promised my wife!) but like all of us I just love these cars and going on those Sunday morning drives. Jeff Mader (1970 240Z, 1971 240Z, 1972 VZ and 1982 280ZX Turbo)