New discovery; the story of solid/chrome Z emblem

[HS30-H]

Alan,that is right,last minute change is the point.

Emblems for the Fairlady cars were settle down already well before the production,but for the Export model,Mr.K refused Fairlady's emblem and he wanted somthing alternative ("Datsun 240Z")

Nissan had to settle down about emblem,the car was about to be assembled in the production line...

Kats,

I'm thinking that the name of the Export model was not the main problem here, as we can see that the '240Z' name was already being attached to one of the LHD Export pre-production / prototype cars in late 1968~early 1969.......

Matsuo and his team would be needing to make sure that all the different Domestic and Export emblems would fit into the same holes on the bodies ( for obvious logistical reasons relating to production ) so I can imagine that factor needed to be decided quite early(?).

Please see the attached pictures, which came from the Miki Press 'Fairlady Z Story' book. It is obvious from the photos that the '240Z' and 'Datsun' names had been thought of already, but the quarter panel emblem shape is not yet finalised ( from the fake 'vent', and the '240Z' script lacking it's round centre backing...... ). We can't see the tailgate 'Datsun' italic script.

I think we still have not really got to the bottom of this story that we have all heard, where Katayama is said to have protested at the 'Fairlady' part of the car's name. Exactly when and how this happened still seems unclear, and I have certainly never believed the story that Katayama was personally taking 'Fairlady' emblems off of S30-series cars as they arrived in the USA. That may have been possible with some SP/SR models, but I can't believe it happened on the S30.

Anyone care to comment on that?

Alan T.

[26th-Z]

The 240Z emblem appears on the export model shown at the Tokyo Auto Show in 1969. Time line help please. Wasn't this about the same time that the North American Testing was done? October 1969?

[geezer]

Actual events may have been blown out of proportion, but Katayama's protests to the "Fairlady" label, and maybe more importantly, the opposing opinion, could very well be reasons for a belated decision and delay of the mass production of the later white Z version. It would be a more likely story, that Katayama was down at the dock putting the new versions on cars that had none at all.

It does appear that 240Z was the predominant plan.

All the pictures I have seen of Nissan quarter panel assemblies have had the mounting holes pre-drilled, which would seem to support the practice of the drilling being done before assembly. Therefore, I would agree on the need of standardized mounting pins for all models. We know the mounting points are the same for the solid and later versions.

With what Kats has told us of Mr. Matsuo's explanation, I have to stick with my original guess. Maybe the letter goes into more detail?

Edit: The rear plate on the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show Export Model, could be an indication of a "lack of decision" at that point in time?

Edited August 13, 2008 by geezer

[HS30-H]

The 240Z emblem appears on the export model shown at the Tokyo Auto Show in 1969. Time line help please. Wasn't this about the same time that the North American Testing was done? October 1969?

Tokyo Auto Show opened its doors to the general public on 24th October 1969. There was a 'press preview' of the cars on Nissan premises in Ginza, Tokyo on 18th October.

[HS30-H]

It does appear that 240Z was the predominant plan.

In what way?

All the pictures I have seen of Nissan quarter panel assemblies have had the mounting holes pre-drilled, which would seem to support the practice of the drilling being done before assembly. Therefore, I would agree on the need of standardized mounting pins for all models. We know the mounting points are the same for the solid and later versions.

The emblem mounting holes were in the panels before they were painted. When you bought a new panel, it came with the 'universal' emblem mounting holes already in it.

Exception would be - in the domestic market - when you ordered a car with the rear spoiler option. Then the car was supplied without the pre-drilled emblem holes in the tailgate. Add a spoiler later and you'd have emblem mounting holes to fill.......

Edit: The rear plate on the 1969 Tokyo Auto Show Export Model, could be an indication of a "lack of decision" at that point in time?

As far as Nissan were concerned, the '240Z' was the 'Fairlady Z Export Model'.

[Mr Camouflage]

We are discussing the emblems on the early US 240Z model. The two quarter emblems and the hatch 240Z emblem all had chrome Z's (in place of the later white painted Z's). The earliest quarter emblems and the Datsun script emblem on the hatch were also solid cast instead of the later hollow cast versions. I have not seen a solid cast 240Z hatch emblem, so I am not sure if any of those were ever made.

-Mike

Well, I own one, so yes they were made.

Disclaimer: if by solid cast you mean the Z is flat and chrome like the numbers 2,4, & 0. I gather by hollow cast, you mean the standard recessed Z emblem.

Maybe a picture will explain it better:

Edited August 13, 2008 by Mr Camouflage
added picture

[Mike B]

Well, I own one, so yes they were made.

Disclaimer: if by solid cast you mean the Z is flat and chrome like the numbers 2,4, & 0. I gather by hollow cast, you mean the standard recessed Z emblem.

No, by solid cast I mean the back side of the emblem is completely solid, not hollow. I would need to see a picture of the back of your emblem to tell if it is solid cast or not. I think there are pictures of 26thZ's solid 240z quarter panel emblem in another thread somewhere, but I couldn't find it right away. I'm posting pictures of a solid cast Datsun rear deck emblem. I have some solid cast quarter panel emblems at home, so I can post a picture tonight if need be.

-Mike

[geezer]

Alan: Maybe I don’t understand your line of thought on this first point, you question. Do you contend that there was no other quarter panel emblem design up for consideration for export to North America? You did submit as your guess, “last minute name changes”…. and not, the last minute change to go with the 240Z (in white) emblem, instead of the solid version. They both say 240Z. If so, that’s where we differ in opinion. I believe the decision was not, what version of the 240Z emblem to go with, but a completely different medallion design that was up for consideration, whatever that may have been. Hope that explains my belief of "240Z" being the "predominant plan". I think the solid version is nothing more than a prototype design, in need of refinement, that was used up early in production, before the later ones were mass produced.

We are in agreement on the pre-drilled status of the quarter panels. I would say they were not only drilled before being painted, but before they were even spot welded to the floor assembly, as opposed to being done on the metal line, like was done as you mentioned in the case of the liftgate drilling, where a build sheet would have to be consulted to see if a rear spoiler was called for. A clear indication of the “universal intent” of emblem attachment. That is why I noted all the photos I’ve seen of replacement quarter panel assemblies, have the holes.

And the third point, relating to “As far as Nissan were concerned, the ‘240Z’ was the ‘Fairlady Export Model’. Yes, that is the way it came about, but going full circle, I’m left wondering if ‘240Z’ was a carved in stone acronym for “Fairlady Export Model” at the time.

Like you, I think there is more to this story than what has been revealed. Mr Matsuo’s letter will undoubtedly leave us with unanswered questions, but perhaps, one day in the future more will be known. I think, out of respect, on the part of the principal figures much will never be said. But, you know what...a little mystery is what has me hooked.:classic:

[Mike B]

I found a picture of the back of a solid cast early 240z quarter panel emblem in an old thread. I think this is Kats' picture.

So, back to my original question. We have seen solid cast Datsun hatch emblems and solid cast 240z quarter panel emblems, but does anyone have a solid cast 240z hatch emblem with the chrome Z???

-Mike

[Mike B]

I was searching through my files looking for that Fairlady emblem I bought from the guy in London who sold me the Datsun film from the Monte Carlo Rallye (can't find it) and I stumbled across this shot of the long lost Zulu emblem.

Chris, is this the Fairlady emblem picture you were looking for? I found it posted by you in an old thread and you indicated it was from the guy in London that you got the film from.

-Mike

[geezer]

I apologize if this question has been addressed or answered previously. I did a fair amount of research and learned quite a bit from earlier discussions, but cannot find an answer or opinions pertaining to the early home market B post emblems.

What exactly is the difference between the LH and RH sides of the early non-vented B post emblems used on the home market models? Appearance, mounting?

That’s the only question I have, but would like to hear opinions on these thoughts.

These early home market B post emblems would definitely seem out of place today, but if they were used from the start, in the production of the North American destined models, would you in any way associate the emblem with “Fairlady”?

Do you think Mr. Katayama was opposed to this emblem, because he wanted an absolute division between the different markets?

I can see the justification of opposing the sharing of the front fender emblems and the liftgate emblems (obvious), but not an emblem adorned with only a stylized Z. It was only a short time later that the stylized Z was brought into play anyhow. This makes me think that the only reason for deciding to go with “240Z” was the fact that they had 2500 of them on hand and decided to use them up and then have the remainder needed mass produced, to finish up the run, without a midstream change.

I initially thought that I would not consider the use of the early home market B post emblem on a North American car a name change, if the “240Z” emblem was retained on the liftgate, but have mixed thoughts.

The guys in the advertising department must have been fit to be tied, in some of these situations.

[26th-Z]

Hey thanks for my picture! I'll be damned if I can find it on my computer! Could be the sweltering steam of August has my brain on half throttle. As I recall, I was so happy to have a metal script Fairlady without the Z because all the Fairladys I had seen had big white Zs. But this brings me to a point I would like to make about the Z. I suspect the Z was always part of the car. Whether it was a Fairlady or a 240, it was always a Z.

Consider the Zulu. Reference page 46 of Brian Long’s “Datsun Z”. “The targa prototype was trimmed in black leather – the flag on the rear quarter was Katayama’s idea (it’s the naval flag that represents the letter Z).”

Studio Sport '70 was working on a design referenced as the Sport Z. Alan, can you confirm the Japanese use of the word "sport" in name descriptions of the S30? We all know that Matsuo's design team was working on a sport replacement for the roadster SP311 – the latest in a long line of sport designs beginning with the DC-3. I suspect the Z represents the connotation of an ambitious design team. “Presenting the ultimate sports car”.

Then I would consider that Mr. Katayama already had a Fairlady and wanted something new to market without the old association attached to the roadster. Consider his relationship with Katsuji Kawamata, Nissan’s president who named the Fairlady after the Broadway musical, “My Fair Lady”. We know Mr. Katayama was very brand oriented evidenced by the replacement of the Fairlady Z emblem on the front wings with the brand name Datsun. Reference Long again pages 58 and 59; “The Z in America”. That is Katayama marketing at its finest. “The 240Z represents the imaginative spirit of Nissan… Our product reflects the rapid advancement of our company… It will be the beginning of a new romance for true car lovers who believe that motoring is more than just a commute”.

I am more than confident that the 240Z emblem we are discussing is the result of an insistence on a very brand oriented, market identifiable, “signature.” It wasn’t just a Z or the tired Fairlady. It was a Datsun 240-Z Sport.