What Constitutes Automotive proof?

[hls30.com]

When you find a car that looks like something you are crazy to have, what should it take to prove that it is what it appears to be.

If a PO says it is the most perfect '71 low mileage 240Z there is, what will prove it so?

If the lowest vin brought to the USA turns up on ebay(the current owner "isn't a Z nut and has no knowledge of what he has-I am sure we can find one of those...hasn't moved the title since he bought it from the original owner six weeks ago) how do we prove it is what he says it is..

The issue with 153, how do we prove the cars real original scarabs or not?

Pick as many as you want, and add what ever you think!

[Mike B]

I think the "proof" will be different depending on what you are trying to verify. To support a mileage claim I think the best proof would be documentation showing mileage at various service intervals over the life of the car. Low mileage cars are generally in very good and original condition, unless they have not been cared for, so the condition of the car should also support a low mileage claim. For example, I bought my 1972 with 37,000 miles from the guardian of the original owner. Unfortunately it didn't come with any service records other than the first couple of service entries in the owner’s manual. However, its condition and originality (all the original hoses, spark plug wires, interior wear, etc.) support it being a low mileage car, and the owners manual lists the name of the original owner and his address, so I am sure I am the second owner. For a low VIN car, in addition to the data plates on North American cars (Dash, door, engine, engine block, firewall), there are other indications of production date. The engine block number should fall into a general range of other cars produced around the same time (available on Zhome.com) and there are lots of unique 1969 production features and date codes that are readily visible. Even though most 1969 cars don’t have all of the original items, they should at least have some, even for cars that were delayed in production and have a production date (shipped date) on the door later than would be expected. For Scarabs, I think it would be difficult to prove originality if you don’t have some paperwork to support it, since many of the parts could be purchased separately or could have come off a parts car. The idea that Scarab didn’t track their production numbers closely and two cars could have wound up with the same ID # doesn’t sound plausible to me without some documentation from the company that this happened. It doesn’t matter if it was four months or four years between production of consecutive units, I am sure that would have been tracked closely. I think discrepancies in the look of the data plates to other Scarabs would also be an indication that one of them may not be as advertised.

-Mike

[psdenno]

I agree. Whether it's a Scarab or a 1966 Mustang GT 2+2, it could be built in my garage with parts "off the shelf". And it would look just like the real thing. All someone needs is a little time to research the bits and pieces needed to build the classic. The paper trail tells the tale.

Dennis

[scarab153]

I am the owner of the red #153 Scarab. It was quite a shock to find another Scarab #153 for sale on ebay. I was thankful the first owner had given me the original purchase order signed by Brian Morrow when I bought the car. My first reaction was that the other #153 had to be a fake. However, after talking with the original owner of my car, the seller on ebay, and reading an email from Craig Sparkes, I now believe that the blue Scarab #153 for sale on ebay is authentic as well. It seems that Brian Morrow was not very careful in maintaining his paperwork. When the original owner of my car picked it up from the factory, it was supposed to be painted a dark metallic blue, instead it was painted a light blue. There had been a mix-up in the paperwork between his car and another car at the factory. When I talked to the seller of the ebay Scarab #153 (not the owner, the car is on consignment) and asked him what the original color had been, he told me it was also light blue. I had not told him about the mistake made with my car's original paint job. With the mix-up in the factory's paperwork, and both cars receiving the same paint, it is no longer hard for me to believe that two ID plates could have been stamped with #153. I will be talking to Craig Sparkes tomorrow or in the next few days. When I talk to him, I will ask him to post his research, or if he would mind if I posted a copy of his email. Then you can decide on the authenticity of the ebay #153 for yourselves. Personally, I now believe that Scarab Automobiles did produce two #153 Scarabs.

Thanks,

Larry

[240ZGL]

You have to know what your looking at. If you don't know then put in the work and find out what your looking at. I spent 2 years looking at Z cars before I found just the right one. NO and I repeat NO serious rust on the body or frame, rust cost major money and time . Does it have a paper history ? No impacts, no Micky or Minny mouse add on's, especially in the wiring. Missing parts, spray can paint jobs and Micky mouse work means the car has been maintained by someone who just didn't care. Do you really want somebody's nightmare. Mine had a bad motor, not blown just not running. The interior wasn't too bad, the seats, carpet and dash top need to be redone. That stuff most people can deal with. I looked at a lot of cars and never looked back at any of then because I knew what I was looking at.

[26th-Z]

I'm glad you did a little research about your car, Scarab. The one on eBay had me stumped for a little bit. It has some honest original Scarab pieces and one wonders how those found their way to the car. I have heard that Morrow didn't keep good records and that it contributed to the demise of the Scarab. All part of the colorful story. Your paperwork is your savior in this case. You seem to have much more convincing evidence to substantiate what you own. The car on eBay has some shady characteristics that make it a much more difficult example to believe in. But a great story! I keep meaning to talk to ZRush about this but I can't get ahold of her at the moment. I will say that her Scarab is being restored by the same guy who did ZRush and that there is talk of selling it when it is complete.

[scarab153]

I finally have a moment to post this, I am currently in the process of starting a new job and moving across the state. I have been talking with Craig Sparkes over the last few days and he agreed to me posting a copy of his email about the blue Scarab #153 for sale on ebay. I removed personal and contact information from the email, but left the rest of it intact.

"Brian Morrow, the owner of Scarab Industries who built these cars was NOT a very good business man. That is how his company went bust. During 1979, he was in the midst of fighting the EPA lawsuit and somewhat distracted by building two cars for the track. So please understand that when Scarab Industries went bankrupt in mid-late 1981, everything left was sold off and Brian disappeared. So there are NO records from the company. However, over the past 13 years, I've been able to piece together a fairly accurate picture of events and cars.

The "blue # 153 car has a build date in February of 1979 and your "red" # 153 has a date in June. I have not been able to find any Scarab with a build date in between those. The other "clue" is that your car has a build date just a few days earlier than car # 154 (one of the track cars). My conclusion is that Brian lost track of his numbers either on your car or on the blue car and duplicated the serial #.

A close inspection of the blue # 153 car has revealed things only factory Scarabs have. And the photos I've seen of your car tend to show some of those.

So I would welcome the chance to register your car and keep your contact information.

As a side note. Your car and # 157 are the only two Scarabs I've seen that have the optional wide body kit. Also, your car is remarkably intact. Please don't "modernize it" ... And I would welcome more photos."

Thru the course of several phone conversations, I have found Craig to be very knowledgeable about Scarabs. I feel that he has a true passion for the cars and their history. Personally, I believe what he has to say, and plan on using him as a resource when I begin restoring my own Scarab #153.

Thanks,

Larry

Edited August 18, 2008 by scarab153

[TomoHawk]

Carfax is useless on an S30. They only go back to around 1982 or so, and when I tried it (online) on my car, it asked for the 17- character VIN. The same with those online car insurance places.

thxZ

[Scarab155]

To the list ... There are a lot of cars that are "collectible" or desirable models that simply do not have a "paper trail" to verify from original owner to the present. That is why there exists many sources that try and act as impartial experts of authenticity. The Marti Report; Galen Govier, The Pontiac Owners Club, etc. No such source existed for Scarabs when I purchased mine in 1996. So i've taken it upon myself to track down and learn all I can about these cars and the history of the company -- Scarab Industries --. In no way am I placijng myself in the company of the above experts. but I've spent 12 years (every day) searching out Scarabs and data about them. I've also torn apart my car and examined every part that is not "stock" Nissan

So the purpose of this post is to say that factory Scarabs have many unique charasteristics that are not easily duplicated (or even known) Also, the "build dates" on the factory serial #'s are not in the public domain. So when I see a "Scarab" -- I try and contact the owner a verify what it is.. Believe me ... this is not an easy task...

To the point -- there were only a few deviations on the blue # 153 car that were not "factory" -- the owner freely admitted to modifying them . The engine/trans mounts; transmission and radiator. Without the valve covers that makes up about 15% of what a Scarab is all about. The photos show the rest.

I saw this car 4 years ago and took considerable time "authenticating it. I also saw (in photos) the red # 153 car about 3 years ago. So, everyone is correct, it does not have "papers" .. but if it was "cloned"... the owner left out the easiest parts to find and put in the "un-obtainable parts" -- makes no sense.

So go easy on yelling FAKE -- it could have cost an honest owner a few $$$

I'd be glad to corrrespond with anyone on Scarabs..

[280~Master]

This sounds great and interesting. What a Z story this is.

I guess you could say the 153's are very rare in there own way, not just by being Scarab cars. It would be interesting to have these 2 cars sitting next to each other in Cleveland for the next big Z meet.

[Scarab155]

John: 1979 was a very interesting year at Scarab Industries. They had moved from Campbell to San Jose... In addition to the two # 153 cars... Brian built two "track cars" ... He was in the midst of the EPA lawsuit and had made the first of his Turbo factory cars. .... This year was a "high water mark" for the company... He published his only catalog that had a lot of important data and option packages described. He took in a bunch of odrers for 1980 production. By 1981, while he continued to build superb cars... his business world was closing in on him. In mid-1981 he went bankrupt. Had a huge "fire sale" to pay debts and disappeared. A real bright footnote in Z car history.

His factory cars are very rare today. In 12 years I've found but less than 20.

[Carl Beck]

Hi Craig:

Good to see you here. I for one do not believe I yelled FAKE {although I might have warned against buying a FAKE}.

I appreciate the fact that you have spent a great amount of time tracking down authentic Scarab's built by Brian. I am sure you are a storehouse of detailed knowledge about this subject. I am also sure you know far more about the Scarab's than me.

On-the-other-hand - I'm no babe in the woods on the subject of buying/selling Collector or Collectible cars. I've lost far more money than most paying my dues... I have also tried to at least follow the various reports of Scarabs, and published publicly whatever information was contributed (mostly by Bruce Bladon} on the Z Car Home Page and in many discussions on the old Z Car List. I have to say that there seems to be a lot of conflicting information, an all but total lack of standards followed by Scarab and very little documented facts. It seems that for the right price Brian would build whatever the customer was willing to pay for, on whatever platform they had. All of which makes it very hard to state definitively exactly what a Scarab is or was.

If there is an issue here, I believe it works both ways; that is to say we shouldn't yell FAKE too soon, nor should we say a car has been "authenticated" when it's only our personal conclusion or opinion.

I understand how you arrived at your conclusion that Brian put the same Scarab Build number on two cars. I also believe that any prospective buyer should give due weight to your researched and opinions. However I do not believe they should be lead to believe that the car has been "authenticated", and therefore will not be constantly questioned in the future. {especially when it has been so extensively modified and bears the same build number as a documented example}

Nor do I believe that we have any obligation to the present owner - to help him sell the car at the highest price he can get. The seller bought the car without documentation, then highly modified it and now he wants to get top dollar for a "Scarab"? I don't blame him, but I don't have to support his quest. It's the potential buyers that come here for advice.

I do believe that the best advice that can be given in situations like this to potential buyers, is to buy a car that is as original as possible to it's "as modified by Brian condition", and which is supported by a very good document trail. Lacking that, the value of any Collector or Collectible vehicle would be greatly reduced and far harder to resell in the Classic, Collectible and Special Interest market.

I want to make it perfectly clear that I have no intention to cast any doubt on your research, nor your honest efforts to report the facts as you see them. I am simply doing the same from my perspective and experiences.

Looking forward - do you plan on publishing your research related to these cars? I for one would be very interested to read it, and I'm sure it would be of great benefit to any potential future owners.

FWIW,

Carl B.