Hold on to Your Hats...an $82K Euro Rally Spec 240z...

[xray]

*'bringatrailer.com' don't know what they are looking at, and Oakfields don't really know what they are selling.

*The spec of the car has absolutely nothing in common with the genuine Works cars.

*It's a little bit more than a seam-welded shell, a set of Webers, Lexan windows and some checker-plate. The most expensive parts of a car like this are the bits you cannot see......

*Current build spec is - I believe - aimed at MSA British Historic Rally Championship participation. Not 'FIA' Appendix K, and certainly not a current Safari type spec.

A current Safari-spec car - built by one of the professionals who currently build them - would start at around double this figure.

I don't personally like some of the details of the car, but it is well built and I think it represents good value for money for anybody that wants to buy a turnkey car for the MSA British championship.

Can you elaborate a little more? What are the "bits" that make it expensive?

What are the specs for British MSA HRC participation?

What did BaT get wrong? No, they don't have encyclopedic knowledge (some of their US Z commentary has been off the mark as well), but could you share their errors so we're all smarter?

Thanks

[26th-Z]

Not to step on Alans' toes, and recognition to Alan for my appreciation of this topic, but the many pieces he speaks of concern the suspension and drive train. This might be a great time to drag them out and conduct a slight tour. Alan has a great picture of the front suspension equipped with the Halda time keeping pieces. I wonder if the car has a "factory" roll bar? I don't recall ever seeing vent windows on the works cars. What a shame it is equipped with Weber carburetors and not Mikunis.

[HS30-H]

Can you elaborate a little more? What are the "bits" that make it expensive?

I'm talking about the many hand-fabricated and hand-modified parts on such a car, just as much as the outright cost of components such as the suspension - which will be scratch-fabricated Bilstein 'monotube' design on this particular car if it is still the same as the last time I saw it. The wheels are magnesium Minilites, which currently retail at around £500 each here in the UK. A properly certificated cage will run to the best part of £1000. Costs soon mount up.......

So the componentry is expensive, but the main amount of time and therefore cost will have come from finding a solid RHD 'shell to start with, and in repairing, modifying & strengthening that as a base to build into. The builder needs to have experience in the type of event that the car is going to participate in, and in this case it is essentially forest / gravel stage rallying - which the car needs to survive just as well as go fast on. Anyone who has not seen what these cars have to go through might not fully appreciate the work that has to go into them.

What are the specs for British MSA HRC participation?

Please don't expect me to answer that properly with a few lines here. If you really want to know all the ins-and-outs then I'd refer you to the RAC MSA direct, from whom you can obtain a booklet containing the full rules and regulations for the championship. It's all pretty complicated once you start getting into it. Sorry, I can't do the subject justice here.

What did BaT get wrong? No, they don't have encyclopedic knowledge (some of their US Z commentary has been off the mark as well), but could you share their errors so we're all smarter?

Well, first of all I'd like to point out that the BringaTrailer attitude ( a bit like the title of the thread here ) seems to be both horrified by the asking price, and yet approving of the car - without acknowledging the local situation or what might have gone into the car. They make much of the "similar style" to the Works cars, when in actual fact there is just about nothing on this car that is similar to that on the Works cars - which is of course natural. It is a modern build which needs to comply with modern regulations and safety concerns as well as utilise modern technology where it is allowed.

They mention "period gold wheels" ( what period was that then? ) and point at the mudguards ( modern acrylic materials ), the number square ( so what!? ) sliding plexiglass windows ( when the Works cars had roll-ups in Lexan and then reverted to glass ) and retention of the Factory dash ( but which has been gutted and then flocked ). They also talk about the bumpers having "no trim" when it is quite clear that they do.

They go on to talk about the car possibly not selling for this asking price because it would be possible to build a "more prestigious" Porsche "similarly prepped" for "the same money" - which I can tell you would most certainly not be possible here in the UK if you had it built professionally!

The Oakfields sale description does itself no favours either. They make mention of "ex-Works Triple-Solex" carburettors - when the car is quite clearly fitted with modern emissions-type Webers on an American inlet manifold, and mention that it was "Built to period Works specification" - which is complete nonsense, and should just be classed as sales flannel.

But I say again, this car is likely worth every penny that they are asking for it if you consider what it would have cost to build, and what it would cost to replicate. It has an MSA competition log book and Historic Rally papers, which make it eligible and ready to go rallying in the UK championship, and there are people that would consider this far cheaper than building a competitive Escort or Porsche. What makes people shy away from buying it and using it for it's intended purpose is that the early Z has a reputation for being something of a handful 'on stage' and needs to be mastered to get the best out of it. An Escort or Porsche 911 will be easier to master, and being more common as rally cars there is more data available for them and more specialists who can look after and 'run' them. The Escort and Porsche are the 'easier' choices. That's why this car did not sell at auction and Oakfields picked it up, so that they can wait for Mr Right to come along and buy it from them. Good luck to them, I say. I hope they get what they are asking for it.

[Bleach]

I hope they get what they are asking for it.

I fully support RHD Z's being worth crazy amounts of money in resale. :cheeky:

[xray]

Alan,

Thanks for the clarification. BTW, it's my own suspicion that BaT is most likely one individual who uses plural pronouns to add emphasis to what is simply one person's opinion. Some of their other descriptions are similarly awkward or wrong, but at least they are putting it on the site which appears to get a lot of traffic. Any advertising/marketing is good for the Z community as a whole.

If you want to educate the BaT moderator(s), they allow commentary on each of their profiled vehicles...I'm sure they'd appreciate what you have to say!

[BRE-240Z]

I was thinking the same thing, Steve. The guys at BaT obviously like Z's (although they are certainly not experts, you can see from some of the 'car on the street' features that they don't know many of the Z-specific styling cues that would indicate what year a car was manufactured, for instance).

So while I enjoy the site and have for many months now, I take all of their commentary with a grain of salt...something that we all should probably do, in the new world of blogging and the internet. Something doesn't have to be true or accurate to get published anymore....

While Alan certainly knows more about the rally car history of the Z than probably anyone, he would probably be wasting his time posting about it on the BaT boards. That site is for the more casual fan of the automobile, and is not niche specific.

The English rally car is beautiful....I'd love to own that machine.

[jmortensen]

They go on to talk about the car possibly not selling for this asking price because it would be possible to build a "more prestigious" Porsche "similarly prepped" for "the same money" - which I can tell you would most certainly not be possible here in the UK if you had it built professionally!

This is where you're losing me Alan. Maybe in Britain buyers are comfortable with paying somebody else to take a rolling shell to a shop and write the check to have the work done. Here in the US it doesn't work that way. In my experience it is NEVER going to be a good return on investment to take a rolling shell of a common automobile (a 240Z, even a RHD, is not an exotic in my opinion) to a shop that does really good work, have them build the car into a race car. It is a good investment if you want to get your 65 or 70K pounds out of it RACING the car for years, but absolute folly to expect that you can pay for all of this work then turn around and sell it for what you paid.

If I were to think about selling my own race car which is stitch welded (evidently more completely than the one in the ad), has a 10 point roll cage, monotube custom valved Bilsteins, many custom fabbed suspension components, Lexan windows, Mikunis, etc when it finally gets done I'd probably put a price of $20K on it, and I think I'd be LUCKY to find someone who would pay that. The basic materials (DOM tube, welding supplies, struts, engine work, LSD, etc) have run me more than the asking price of the car would be. To expect that I could then be reimbursed for my time, well, just doesn't sound realistic to me. Which is why I intend to drive that F'er into the ground...

Edited August 27, 2008 by jmortensen

[HS30-H]

This is where you're losing me Alan. Maybe in Britain buyers are comfortable with paying somebody else to take a rolling shell to a shop and write the check to have the work done. Here in the US it doesn't work that way. In my experience it is NEVER going to be a good return on investment to take a rolling shell of a common automobile (a 240Z, even a RHD, is not an exotic in my opinion) to a shop that does really good work, have them build the car into a race car.

Where am I "losing" you?

I've already mentioned that this car cost the original owner more to get built than it sold for at auction, let alone what Oakfields are asking for it. He bailed out, and ended up with negative equity. I don't know if he expected a return on his "investment" ( I highly doubt it, to be honest ) and I think it is far more likely that he just didn't enjoy the car as much as he had hoped, and perhaps realised that it takes a little more than a good car build to be competitive in that championship.

Having a professional race shop build you a bespoke race car is never going to be any kind of financial investment with a promise of future profit. It's a tool for a job, and the job is what is supposed to give you the return - in the form of enjoyment. I don't know anyone who expects to get all their money back after having had all the fun........

It is a good investment if you want to get your 65 or 70K pounds out of it RACING the car for years, but absolute folly to expect that you can pay for all of this work then turn around and sell it for what you paid.

You're going to have to tell me where we don't agree, because as far as I can tell we are both in saying the same thing - although I don't know where the 65 or 75K pounds figure is coming from? I'm not advocating that anybody starts commissioning professional race car builds as some sort of pension scheme.......

I'm not going to start talking about what is "different" between the UK and USA, except to point out once again that in my opinion you could not replicate this car at the price if you have one built professionally in the UK. There are lots of amateur race and rally drivers here in the UK who have their cars built for them rather than building them themselves ( there's a whole industry based on it ) and I can't imagine that it is any different anywhere else in the world. And just like everywhere else, we have the home-builders and backyard constructors too. Indeed, some of these amateur British constructors became world famous......

[jmortensen]

You're going to have to tell me where we don't agree, because as far as I can tell we are both in saying the same thing - although I don't know where the 65 or 75K pounds figure is coming from? I'm not advocating that anybody starts commissioning professional race car builds as some sort of pension scheme.......

The 65 or 70K pounds is what I think it is overvalued by.

I'm not going to start talking about what is "different" between the UK and USA, except to point out once again that in my opinion you could not replicate this car at the price if you have one built professionally in the UK. There are lots of amateur race and rally drivers here in the UK who have their cars built for them rather than building them themselves ( there's a whole industry based on it ) and I can't imagine that it is any different anywhere else in the world. And just like everywhere else, we have the home-builders and backyard constructors too. Indeed, some of these amateur British constructors became world famous......

To put it in perspective, I think I could send a shell to Beta Motorsports and have John Coffey do the stitch welding and build a custom cage and suspension and add in some proper race carbon fiber body panels, send the engine to Rebello, send the trans and diff to Unitrax, find a body shop to paint it, etc, and ship that finished car that is the equivalent of the rally car in question to the UK for 10's of thousands of dollars less than what they're asking for that car. Maybe that should be somebody's pension scheme...

You don't want to talk about the difference between our countries and that's fine, but my point was that from this country that Z looks insanely overpriced. If that point is lost on you, then I guess that's the end of the argument.

[HS30-H]

The 65 or 70K pounds is what I think it is overvalued by.

So you think it is actually overvalued by 15,000 to 20,000 Pounds Sterling more than it's asking price.....? The asking price ( open to negotiation, by the way ) is £44,950 Pounds STG........

You're going to have to explain that one to me.

To put it in perspective, I think I could send a shell to Beta Motorsports and have John Coffey do the stitch welding and build a custom cage and suspension and add in some proper race carbon fiber body panels, send the engine to Rebello, send the trans and diff to Unitrax, find a body shop to paint it, etc, and ship that finished car that is the equivalent of the rally car in question to the UK for 10's of thousands of dollars less than what they're asking for that car. Maybe that should be somebody's pension scheme...

Well, if you can find a customer who is willing to spend money with you - then good luck. After the completion of this e-mailed build, that customer would have to import the car and pay customs duty on it. That's going to jack up the cost somewhat don't you think?

That's not even taking into account that ( I reckon ) you would have great difficulty in supplying an HS30 with a UK identity, not to mention the MSA log book and historic papers, from the USA. I'm not questioning the quality of your work or John Coffey's, but I fail to see why anyone here in the UK would want to gamble on beta-testing ( ha ha - see what I did there? ) your first shot at an MSA historic stage rally car.

You also seem to be forgetting that many of these 'arrive and drive' type customers need advice in their build spec as well as support in on-event servicing and logistics. You will be coming over with John Coffey to do this as well, no doubt? You'll be checking into an "insanely expensive" hotel if you think in Dollar terms, I'm afraid.

You don't want to talk about the difference between our countries and that's fine, but my point was that from this country that Z looks insanely overpriced. If that point is lost on you, then I guess that's the end of the argument.

No doubt it would look even more expensive to somebody looking in from Papua New Guinea - but what does that have to do with anything? This car is for sale in the UK and is reflecting the economic situation concerning building such a car in the UK. If it does not sell then Oakfields will have to reduce their price, but I don't think they are going to alter their asking price just because you say it's "too high" for a territory, customer base and market sector that it is not being aimed at.

If those points are lost on you, then the discussion is not worth continuing with.

[jmortensen]

So you think it is actually overvalued by 15,000 to 20,000 Pounds Sterling more than it's asking price.....? The asking price ( open to negotiation, by the way ) is £44,950 Pounds STG........

You're going to have to explain that one to me.

I misunderstood you earlier. I thought you had said that the 82K was pounds, not dollars. That would be close to $150,000.

Well, if you can find a customer who is willing to spend money with you - then good luck. After the completion of this e-mailed build, that customer would have to import the car and pay customs duty on it. That's going to jack up the cost somewhat don't you think?

You're right. I forgot about your socialist country's punitive taxation. That would have to be factored in. At least you have "free" health care though, eh?

That's not even taking into account that ( I reckon ) you would have great difficulty in supplying an HS30 with a UK identity, not to mention the MSA log book and historic papers, from the USA. I'm not questioning the quality of your work or John Coffey's, but I fail to see why anyone here in the UK would want to gamble on beta-testing ( ha ha - see what I did there? ) your first shot at an MSA historic stage rally car.

Given the rule book I don't think it would be that hard to come up with something that passed inspection.

You also seem to be forgetting that many of these 'arrive and drive' type customers need advice in their build spec as well as support in on-event servicing and logistics. You will be coming over with John Coffey to do this as well, no doubt? You'll be checking into an "insanely expensive" hotel if you think in Dollar terms, I'm afraid.

Didn't see that listed in the ad...

No doubt it would look even more expensive to somebody looking in from Papua New Guinea - but what does that have to do with anything? This car is for sale in the UK and is reflecting the economic situation concerning building such a car in the UK. If it does not sell then Oakfields will have to reduce their price, but I don't think they are going to alter their asking price just because you say it's "too high" for a territory, customer base and market sector that it is not being aimed at.

If those points are lost on you, then the discussion is not worth continuing with.

I never claimed to be criticizing from a European point of view. I said that the value given to the car is insanely high to me. I am an American, so that is my frame of reference. In the US, that should be a $15 to $20K car. That was my point.

[HS30-H]

Well, whatever way you look at it, it's an awful lot of pet door sales, isn't it?