Discussing 240Z values, especially Low VIN

[rdefabri]

I'm really surprised that your car didn't break $3500 on Ebay, I don't know anything about it but it sounds like it doesnt need much....or does it?

No, it doesn't need much - primarily a paint job and I'd suggest having the head refreshed. It runs, the underside is in great shape, interior is in good shape. It often gets comments on how "nice" it is. It's certainly not show quality, and my Jag trounces it cosmetically, but that was a more recent refresh than my 240Z.

I reiterate Stephen's point - it's worth whatever someone will pay for it. Shoot, most of us have a story - I could have had an original Superbird 20 years ago for almost nothing. Today, those are $100K+ cars, which is shocking given that they were not really desirable, even when new. SOMEONE is willing to pay that - not me of course, but that's what the market is bearing at the moment.

[xray]

#194 is probably a better starting point, too, as you get to stand on the shoulders of someone else's work, albeit at a price. I would like to get involved with either project, but the lack of available "unique" parts for the 1969 builds will make for a very drawn-out, patience-testing and expensive restoration process. Maybe those parts are in this guy's posession?

IMO, with apologies to those who believe to the contrary, the F500 cars really only maintain their value if they are approached as numbers matching, original restorations. Wrong engine, upgrades/modifications, wrong resto parts all conspire to lose the cachet value of being in the first boatload, and it becomes more like a "normal" 1970 240Z. Or (gasp!) like a 1972 one....

Edited September 10, 2008 by xray

[Sailor Bob]

RJ - if there were 100,000 Superbirds still kicking around and all sorts of parts/engines (complete) readily available, I'm sure you would get one for less than 100K.

[rdefabri]

RJ - if there were 100,000 Superbirds still kicking around and all sorts of parts/engines (complete) readily available, I'm sure you would get one for less than 100K.

Well...yes and no. Exclusivity does not always equal higher value, but I generally agree with you on the Superbird.

However, let's look at similar cars/production numbers (rounded):

Jaguar XKE: 75,000

Corvette (1963 - 1967): 120,000

240Z: 150,000

So perhaps the Jag, at half the production units, is a bit of an anomaly, but clean examples easily exceed $100K. Same with the Corvettes, especially if numbers matching.

I think it was Carl Beck that said there may be around 5,000 examples of the 240Z left - so it's still exclusive, yet it doesn't approach the values of the other cars. That's more proof for Stephen's argument of "whatever someone will pay".

[Sailor Bob]

I bet there are alot more than 5000 240s around - no offence intended to anyone. Perhaps 5000 licenced, but I bet there are over 5000 in California (in various states of repair) according to the number you see for sale.

Not all Vettes fetch big money, can't speak for Jags.

[EVILC]

I would also believe there are more than 5000 Z's around. How many show up to the West Coast show on avg every year?

[sblake01]

This would be something to ponder for one part of my argument, which is not really an argument but more just a personal opinion. And it has to do with what I said about 240Zs not yet reaching the stature of some of the other collectable cars. How many F500 240Zs were made, about 500? And how many Superbirds were built? In 1970, NASCAR raised the homologation requirement from 500 to one for every two dealers in the United States. That meant Plymouth had to build 1,920 Superbirds. So there were more Superbirds than F500 240Z and still the Superbird commands a much higher price.

[moonpup]

.....snip.... That meant Plymouth had to build 1,920 Superbirds. So there were more Superbirds than F500 240Z and still the Superbird commands a much higher price.

The Superbirds were a special limited run based on Plymouths Roadrunner model.

There was nothing special about the F500 other than they were the first 500 delivered and because of the fact that they were only numbered sequentialy and not actually delivered in the same manner, then who can say with any accurracy that a particular number under 500 was in fact on that first boat load.

Edited September 10, 2008 by moonpup

[hls30.com]

The Superbirds were a special limited run based on Plymouths Roadrunner model.

There was nothing special about the F500 other than they were the first 500 delivered and because of the fact that they were only numbered sequentialy and not actually delivered in the same manner, then who can say with any accurracy that a particular number under 500 was in fact on that first boat load.

I think if you go compare the price of many of the parts from the earliest cars to the price of the same parts in later cars you may find there must be something special about them...

Red dot Mirror, Un-shrouded map light, non webbed center vent, metal emblems, seat belts, gray ashtray, 2400 valve cover, coat knobs, framed air elbows, hub caps...from the top of my head.

True these were not advertised as "special" Models, but they had special parts...

Will

[moonpup]

I think if you go compare the price of many of the parts from the earliest cars to the price of the same parts in later cars you may find there must be something special about them...

Red dot Mirror, Un-shrouded map light, non webbed center vent, metal emblems, seat belts, gray ashtray, 2400 valve cover, coat knobs, framed air elbows, hub caps...from the top of my head.

True these were not advertised as "special" Models, but they had special parts...

Will

No offense intended, but they are only "special" in the minds of those who hold them in high regard. Otherwise, they are just unique to a particular year/model.

[MikeW]

No offense intended, but they are only "special" in the minds of those who hold them in high regard. Otherwise, they are just unique to a particular year/model.

One might go so far as to say that some of the early parts were later replaced with superior parts. Not just the really early parts that we're discussing here but things that were changed all along the production run. Nissan moved vents from the tailgate for a good reason. They upgraded the radio to add FM along with AM. Fully reclining seats are nice as are hatches beneath the rear deck in place of plastic tool bins. The lighted heater control panel for '73 was arguably better.

To me this is just the way collectibles work. People place higher value on things that are somehow special, usually attributed to "rarity". My classic example is Barry Bond's record breaking 756th home run ball which sold for $752,467. To me it's a used baseball that's worth less than a new baseball. He's hit a few more since then, also record breakers but since he's breaking his own record it's not as special as breaking Hank Aaron's record.

The low number thing has also made me wonder. In the world of artwork limited-edition prints or cast sculptures are numbered. Smaller runs are worth more and lower numbers are worth more because the quality goes down as more and more copies are produced. That may be the reasoning used for lower VINS being better but the quality of cars is likely just the opposite. Early cars might have had hand welding later to be replaced by higher quality machine welding.

[hls30.com]

You stepped right into it...

" Results 1 of about 111,000,000 for definition of special. (0.38 seconds)

Web definitions for special

particular(a): unique or specific to a person or thing or category;"

WIll