Discussing 240Z values, especially Low VIN

[EScanlon]

Having seen the terms: "True Value" and "Market Value"; being used in this thread, I'm wondering if anyone has come up with a nice succinct way of expressing those nebulous meanings.

The only adage I remember is from an Economics class back in High School:

"The value of an item is that value that that item will receive at the time and place of it's sale."

The examples given were Ice in the Arctic versus in the Sahara, along with a warm blanket in the cold versus the tropics.

Everything surrounding value boils down to demand and supply. The supply of 240's is not only fixed (no more being produced) but shrinking (rust and parts-car cannibalization). Demand has been rising for some time causing an increase in prices.

A #3 car in the West Coast will barely get glanced at, yet that same car on the East Coast will likely get bidders/buyers.

Toss in any kind of "unique" feature or salient point and the perception of those "added" benefits can raise the prices extended for those cars.

To some people if Mr. K signs your dash the car is automatically "worth" more... where to others the dash is now marred. The market lies between those two extremes.

Add in a numeric goal.... one of the "first" 500... and you can now compare how much closer to the "0" car you are than someone else... and presumably it's worth more. Which, it is... simply because of a perceived added value to the "true value" of that car. Where to others, they're the "beta" versions... with all the known bugs being worked out. Some people would label the 73 as the "best" of all years of the 240, simply because of 3+ years of "improvements" over the base production mock ups (pre-69 if there were such).

And all of these are "True Value" indicators .... to those who value in that manner.

Since I'm not planning on selling, therefore my car is invaluable. I wonder if I could get an insurance company to insure it for me if I were willing to pay the premium on an "invaluable" car.... I bet I could. Might not be cheap, but that would allow me to set the price (ahem... value), and pay premiums based on that figure.

So once again, could someone define "true value" and "market value" for me?

2¢

E

[26th-Z]

I love reading all the comments and some really good points are being made. It's pretty obvious what I think of all of this.

[xray]

Steve, neither you or I own a 'typical' 240Z. So looked at from our perspective, the perception may be different.

On the other hand, how much more would a sub-500 car in condition equal to your car be worth? More than $24k, I'd bet.

Go back to the other thread that started this. We're talking about a fairly beat looking car that will need extensive restoration. Because it is a '69-built car, the $5k+ price is considered to be reasonable. That same car as a mid-70-built car (VIN in the 6-9xxx range) might go for half of that. As a late '71 or '72, it's a $500 car out west, maybe $1500-2000 in the rest of the country.

Consider all the buyers' guides over the past years (even decades) proclaiming 240Zs to be great buys. "Buy yours now before the price skyrockets!" Hasn't happened yet, not for the 'normal' cars. Sure, some of the collector cars change hands for big bucks, but that hasn't spilled over to the really nice #3 cars. And I don't think it will, as long as it's 'common knowledge' that the low-VIN cars are the ones with value.

We've seen on EBay several nice #3+ or #3 cars sell between 12-19k--I'd call that "trickle down." It's the 3- "driver" cars, those with unrestored engine bays/undercarriage, old interior, faded original paint etc that aren't getting the love we want them to.

BTW, I'm still waiting for disclosure of sale for any of the F500 cars in restored #1/#2 condition. Don't know of any that have crossed the auction blocks in the last few years...Tough to guess a market value when no one's willing to sell. And rumors of sale without evidence don't do much--let's see some numbers!

[Weasel73240Z]

EScanlons point about location is key I think. I know that I've been driving my Z for one whole Summer now, and I have yet to see a single other 240Z on the road. So in Cali my restored 73 car may only be worth $4,000, but here in Massachusetts, it may be sell for twice that. That assumption is based on the 1 or 2 similar (70 - 73) 240Z's a month that show up in the WantAd classifieds.

I also loved you point about the 73 model maybe being "the best".

With that said, is there any premium in owning the last model year?

[xray]

So once again, could someone define "true value" and "market value" for me?

2¢

E

Market value= what it's worth at point of sale

True value= what seller wishes he could've sold it for

[26th-Z]

"BTW, I'm still waiting for disclosure of sale for any of the F500 cars in restored #1/#2 condition. Don't know of any that have crossed the auction blocks in the last few years...Tough to guess a market value when no one's willing to sell. And rumors of sale without evidence don't do much--let's see some numbers!"

You're not going to see those cars trade publicly. And they aren't necessarily being sold at this time. They're being acquired. What we DO see occasionally, is a superb example of a later model. Occasionally we see a Vintage Z cross the block. Those cars are trading in the $20,000 to $30,000 range. I can think of a couple of cars that would be marketed for more.

Edited September 11, 2008 by 26th-Z

[jcote75]

Hi everyone.

I'm a new owner here and would like to say that I have a lot of pleasure reading everybody comments of the value of theses cars.

One point that wasn't mention and that I had considered when I purchase mine is the fact that the early model are lighter and have better carbs and has a result of a "sportier" drive. I haven't drive mine so can't confirm if it's true!

Here in Quebec Canada, the Z with nearly no rust goes around 10K-15K. This is the asking price and stay for pretty long for sale. Not a very big market here. A nice Canadian Z-car (please read rusty) go around 3K to 6K!

But again, I don't think you buy a 240Z for resell after a few month with profit. I'ts more a emotional thing

Joce

[xray]

You're not going to see those cars trade publicly. And they aren't necessarily being sold at this time. They're being acquired. What we DO see occasionally, is a superb example of a later model. Occasionally we see a Vintage Z cross the block. Those cars are trading in the $20,000 to $30,000 range. I can think of a couple of cars that would be marketed for more.

That's my whole point...here we are saying how much more valuable these cars are supposed to be, yet cars in representative condition don't sell/acquire/trade whatever often (if at all) and no one discloses when they do sell and for how much. That smacks of smoke and mirrors, and until someone offers concrete evidence to the contrary no one can authoritatively state the difference in value between a 1969 and a later 1970-72 MY car. It's fair to assume it'll be more, but we need empiric evidence.

Here's an idea, Chris...I'll "acquire" #26 from you for a few months, then you can "acquire" it back...That way we can establish a market and publicly documented value! Whaddayathink? 50k to start? I can have my attorney draw up a contract.....

[hls30.com]

There are a few people "in the know" and thereby in on many of the private sales. several have posted in this thread.

There have been a couple of cars on Ebay recently that were there for a quick sale because there were not "aquirers" waiting for those specific cars, had there been, the cars would have sold for more money and the buyer, the seller, and their advisors would have been the only ones to know until someone went looking...

Will

[26th-Z]

I don't know what to tell you about "empiric evidence". I wouldn't consider myself "in the know" either. I have my opinion. I know where most of the first 100 HLS30s are and who owns them. I would say that we all pretty much think the same about the value of our cars. I'll bet we'll see see some of these cars in the next couple of years. And I'll bet $50,000 will be a good starting point. But here is a perfect example of how the "market" is going. http://www.classiczcars.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=3176&cat=1

[Poindexter]

]

I don't know what to tell you about "empiric evidence". I wouldn't consider myself "in the know" either. I have my opinion. I know where most of the first 100 HLS30s are and who owns them. I would say that we all pretty much think the same about the value of our cars. I'll bet we'll see see some of these cars in the next couple of years. And I'll bet $50,000 will be a good starting point. But here is a perfect example of how the "market" is going. http://www.classiczcars.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=3176&cat=1

Wow, a working hand-throttle??? When I first lifted my console there was still another cable alongside the choke cable in there, and a forlorn open slot, but no handle. Not that I would have used it, well, maybe on the highway...

I *really* like that price...I'm not that far from getting closer to that condition- not that I'll ever get there. No repair records and no original 4-speed on the short list of deficits.

Isn't one measure of value what it would cost to replace the car in current market conditions? Maybe not "True" or "Market" value, but a definite price point, never-the-less.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Poindexter

[Arne]

No repair records and no original 4-speed on the short list of deficits.

I've got a good spare early 4 speed here in Oregon. I've been planning to keep it just in case, but for the right price...