eBay audacity

[Poindexter]

*sniped* There is enough dishonesty in the vague and outright inaccurate descriptions of vehicles sold on the net sight unseen already, without allowing this practice a foothold in our hobby. Deplorable!

I added it to Mike W's Z spreadsheet registry too, and also brought it to his attention. IMHO it should be documented somewhere for future reference. Getting ripped off is terrible, but seeing it happen to others is almost as sad.

[Walter Moore]

That's the part that gets him off the hook if the person that purchases it, uses it for anything other than collectors items.

There is nothing illegal about selling the ownerships and vin plates to a car without the car, there is no crime being committed there.

How it is used could be a crime, or could be just used as collectors items.

There's a guy that is at swap meets allover over my province, sells ownerships and vin numbers to car dating as far back as 1908 I think he said his oldest was. He sells ownerships and vins for many makes.

I'll say it again. There is nothing illegal about selling what is in this auction.

What somebody might use this for could be illegal, but it's not guaranteed.

Actually in many part of the U.S. (Like Indiana...) selling the VIN plate and title to a junk car IS illegal. A few years back several people from a local salvage yard went to jail for doing just that.

[HS30-H]

1) I missed nothing. I can't vouch for what happened within anybody else's cranium.

What's your exact rendering of what happened, as determinable from the available "evidence"?

If you go back and read my post again, I believe you will see that I already put forward my take on the likely scenario. Perhaps you did miss something after all?

Anybody that wants to take this further, and ask some pertinent questions, can contact the seller here:

http://www.zclub.net/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=2165

[Mr Camouflage]

Ah. Sean is a member here too.

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/member.php?u=2972

He even posted about the car here:

http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18874

[26th-Z]

You can buy body-in-white chassis with no US legal VIN number stamped anywhere directly from the motorsports divisions of ... Nissan...

I would be very surprised to discover that I can buy an S30 chassis at this time. I would imagine that they went unobtanium decades ago. We did have a conversation about white bodies some time ago. I realize that they did exist. However...not now.

I do believe he did miss your point, Alan.

[geezer]

I would be very surprised to discover that I can buy an S30 chassis at this time. I would imagine that they went unobtanium decades ago. We did have a conversation about white bodies some time ago. I realize that they did exist. However...not now.

I do believe he did miss your point, Alan.

Chris, I think John Coffey is referring to BIW packages that can still be bought from these manufacturers today as well as in the past for racing/off road purposes only. They are sold without a VIN or a Statement of Compliance. It is possible to later legally validate these cars for street use, by the manufacturer supplying a VIN along with a Statement of Origin and a Compliance Label. A Federal Safety Inspection has to be passed along with Emission Standards set by Federal and State rulings, then registration at the State Licensing Office (DMV) can take place. That is how it is legally done with the co-operation of the manufacturer, but if you are trying to reintroduce a race car that was initially issued a VIN, back to the street, it will be a great deal more difficult, if for some reason the VIN is now gone.

What seems like a good idea, something that won't hurt anyone, such as transplanting a donor VIN is not the way to go about it, even if it would be easy enough to pull off. There is a reason for laws being black & white and that is to keep us honest and out of the gray areas, where people become victims.

I don't think the "point" of Alan's post was missed by anyone in this thread.

[26th-Z]

Here's the thread I'm thinking of. http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21981&highlight=White+body

[John Coffey]

I would be very surprised to discover that I can buy an S30 chassis at this time. I would imagine that they went unobtanium decades ago. We did have a conversation about white bodies some time ago. I realize that they did exist. However...not now.

Do you really think I was referring to buying a S30 BIW from Nissan? Currently I know Nissan offers the 350Z and the Frontier as BIW. There might be other models available.

[geezer]

Here's the thread I'm thinking of. http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21981&highlight=White+body

Interesting thread, but nothing surprising or conclusive, which I would expect, because of the nature of evaporating paper trails. I'm sure each manufacturer had their own methods of making what are essentially incomplete assembly components available for sale to not only racing teams, but also other specific need enterprises. I can share with you my limited knowledge of these BIW sales to race teams. The ones I've seen come out of the Chrysler Corporation all had one thing in common, which was a data plate mounted in the engine compartment which was essentially a disclaimer, releasing the company from any liability. I had one that I have been unable to find, that I saved as a curiosity item. I hear they are valuable collectibles today. I never paid much attention at the time to who bought these bodies, which were in various stages of completion when sold, but a few have stuck in my memory.

Some teams bought single cars, such as Sox & Martin, who also bought the last 4 hemi engines produced at Windsor's Plant 2. I walked past them every day and seen them collecting dust for months with a tag on the rack saying only "Hold for Sox & Martin". The Imperial Hell Drivers were a stunt driving team that put on exhibitions at various events and also headlined their own shows with their driving skills. They bought these racing only packages a dozen at a time. Every year there were many racing destined bodies plucked out of the system. Some only in primer, others with basic white paint. I never paid much attention to them, but I think they did have a VIN. I also remember a very large order of vans sent to South America, that were bare bodies, only coated in some type of protective oil and had no wiring, suspension or drive trains, that were destined for a corporate coffee plantation. Rust was developing on these before they left the yard. Through out the years I'm sure that any manufacturer that subsidized racing endeavours, also made bare shells/bodies available. I'm sure each manufacturer handles these sales a little differently, but two things seem to be a constant. Record keeping mysteriously disolves into thin air and all ties/responsibility are severed immediately. This is all '60s & '70s history with no relevence to the way things are done today.

[Sean Dezart]

Ok chaps - get yer hammer and nails out 'cos you've got a real, live slimey Ebay villain here..........or have you ?

Last week, a Parisian motorcycle cop hit an elderly woman on a pedestrian crossing, severing one of her legs, the poor lady died two days later and it was discovered that the cop had been speeding with no siren, no warning lights and was over the minimum alcohol limit. Scary that they're allowed to drink at all before being on duty but maybe he was already.....

The next day a gendarme shot at a superior before blowing his own head off - an attempt maybe at improving upon the USPS sorting office life expectancy (no offence to you guys - you do a great job and I always get my Z parts delivered safely) !

The Pope, currently visiting us here has apologised for various infractions and cases of immorality undertaken by 'his' gentlemen of the cloth.

What am I going on about and why ?

Who can you trust ? Not men, not women not animals said Conans' father - this boy, this, you can trust as he showed him steel ! And that's it - you can't trust anyone and you're all right to have questioned this sale BUT I still have the car, well, most of it including the chassis!

If any of you want to buy the numbers AND the chassis and pay for its' transport BACK to the USA - I'm open to offers. But unless someone here's a looney millionaire, that aint gonna happen and if there is one here, where was he (she ?) when I bought the car 3 1/2 years ago for $1760.

History of the car :

I was buying several Z to import into Europe via Spain (lower VAT) and in fact 11 were bought and 1x Fairlady Roadster, currently being restored not far from me by its' new owner.

I wasn't expecting to win the 1970 Z bid - it was a 'stocking filler' - a last, cheap car to cram into a container to make the most of a bit more space !

I 'won' however, a complete car needed some attention to restore it having had a small knock in the rear panel but included a replacement rear hatch.

When I saw the car...whoa, the complete rear end needed replcaing, not just the hatch (which wasn't an original type with the lower vents), both engine end chassis rails had been 'cut' and 'welded' by some guys little brother it appears, the bonnet support panels are bent and most importantly, the firewall was buckled and even pierced ! It had the orginal E31 engine and head, 4 sp gearbox and most of the interior but in very poor state.

Thanks MR USA Ebay seller - sounds almost illegal doesn't it ? Let's just say that he was econmical with the truth and poorly described his car and move on.

I'd hoped to sell it on cheaply as a potential track car, perhaps eligible for pre'70 race classement as it could probably be proved to have been manufactured before January 1970.

BUT, I wouldn't let anyone take this car away just like that so began a programme of stripping it down in preperation for repalcement panels including a 'new' firewall - the orginal reason why the VIN was cut out !

But one starts buying panels and then lucidty starts creeping in and I realise that I'm going to lose so much money so I sell some panels, keep others in case of trouble with my own 240 and start to sell off what's salvageable on this chassis. I'm happy to have cut out the VIN because when this chassis goes to the great Z paradise, nobody can re-hash the number.

So, I have a practically useless chassis, European VAT and customs duties paid upon it, all the clear titles and documents and even Nissans' certicate of conformity ready to import it on a CG normale but I'm not going to do that - it wouldn't be ethical.

I'm not famous but I have a reputation and people know of me and even if you don't always like what I say, I would never screw another Z fan - Zs and Z people have given me too much pleasure in life and besides, I have principal to treat others how I'd expect to be treated !

You should know that to import a car here, the car doesn't even have to be seen - if you know someone at the controle technique station, they'll sell you a CT 'non-runner' which you then use with other official documents to get your CG normale or collection !

I've hidden nothing, the car has always been mine since it arrived in Europe, it still is and I've talked about it on this forum, on the UK forum and on our French forum. It's been advertised honestly in the UK, in France and on Ebay.fr

I did palce the ad on Ebay.com for a laugh - if someone wanted to buy it - no problem but I wasn't insulting anyones' intelligence but including the chassis - niaive perhaps considering Ebays' rules and I could still place another ad including the chassis and removing the title photo........ but what would it serve ?

Why then did I add "use it as YOU think fit" - to cover my ar*e but nobody came back and asked if there really was no more chassis.

Anyway - it spurred some discussion and perhaps you know more now than at the beginning of the thread. Interesting to nate that the discussion went from illegal, to only illegal if abused after purchase to too expensive.......

That it's now been reported as dubious doesn't worry me - I wasn't really expecting the sale to lead anywhere anyway and if now, that means that no-one else might have a chance of restoring an early chassis - tough !

Someone can still make me an offer though.... or it'll go up on a frame in my Z garage : the chassis will get crushed ! That'll boost up the early cars values......:devious: - do I get a bonus for that ?

But hang on - there remains another question unanswered : why sell it on Ebay.com if the car is in France and 3/4 legally imported ?

Because your country is the only one I know of where an early car is so coveted ! Perhaps Alan will correct me that maybe in Japan, pre-HS30 car command a premium but I guess that they're so expensive in any form there anyway !

But why do YOU value a 'series 1' car so ? Is it better to drive than another ? Nissan didn't think so or they wouldn't have changed so many things....are they better then, than say, pre-72 cars ? Pre-'73 cars ?

It seems to me that '71 and '72 cars are the most desirable as most people can't get hold of the 'series 1' cars or don't want to because they're either :

1) basket cases and very expensive to restore to original form or

2) they're too expensive once restored or in very good original form

Ultimately (in my opinion) a '73 240Z with early carbs, or a 260Z with 240Z carbs or a 280Z (both mith erhum, improved bumpers) are much better than your 'series 1s' which in all honesty count merely for snob value !

Poindexter - " I did in fact stop to think what happened, but since finding out precisely what happened to the "donor" car is nigh impossible from the US, I did not bother trying."

1) you could have contacted me via Eaby with a private message

2) after Alan highlighted the UK site advert. you could have replied

3) after it was highlighted that I was a member here, you could have PM'd me

so, in conclusion it wasn't and still isn't impossible and you don't try very hard at all.

this is a member of the French board I belong!

Regarding French laws, having a low VIN number can help to pass emission test.

240z's are right in between 2 laws, cars before October 72 do not have to get emission tested (easy then to be registered as street legal car)

Of Course it's perfectly illegal but this is why, I guess, it is sold.

No need to be disappointed Lazeum :classic:

Not at all why it's being sold or I might have worded it differently and advertised it on Ebay.fr

Pre-1972 cars in the UK are exempt from road tax and so I might have done the same on Ebay.co.uk and is another reason why imports are popular since not many original UK cars survive from before end 1972 although Alan has well explained the end use of 95% of LHD imports into the UK. REMEMBER THAT if selling a car to a slimey limey - the sale isn't illegal but the end use could be (words sound familiar ?) !

You have to know that my Z in France is worth €20,000 whereas it is worth less than 10,000$ in the US. (1€ = $1.40 !!!) They are very few S30 sold in France at this time (less than 1,000) so most of them are imported from the US. You have to do the whole nine yard to make it French legal (lights wiring to be modified, customs, brakes have to be good, emmision...)

Rubbish - your car may have been valued at €20000 like several others I know of (mine's been valued at €30000) but you and I would be hard pressed to find a buyer at that amount. Most 240Zs over here go for around €10000 - €16000 although of course I believe that they are obviously under-valued.

Thankfully, one DOES have to make sure that the brakes work right, the lights are conforming and (sadly) the emissions test is passed - some of the cars sold on Ebay are right lemons and if you're getting a CG Collection then you know that you only need to get it through a controle technique and if you know someone there - that shouldn't be a problem even if some things aren't 'exactly' 'legal' !ps My engine's a stroked 3.1 and still passes the emissions test !

I think that it's generally belived that about 850 240Zs were officially imported into France between 1971 and early 1974 with perhaps no more than 20% left running. Yours Lazeum, is one of perhaps 20 personnally imported of all S30 types.

So you get a 260/280 which is worth less, you swap the VIN, swap the bumpers, leave the engine and your selling a 240z with a L28 swap for big money...

Totally unrealistic - where do you find this 260/280 ? Stateside ? Then it'll cost the same to import that as a perfect 240Z and nobody can convince me that a 260/280Z ressembles a 240Z 'cept for the bumpers ! C'mon ! Besides, this car (chassis number 4944) isn't on French plates yet !

Whatever, enjoy your presidential election - it sounds like it's gonna get really entertaining !

Cordialement,

[Sean Dezart]

A quick search found these :

http://www.zclub.net/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=1678&cat=1

http://www.zclub.net/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=1647&cat=1

and especially

http://www.zclub.net/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=1486&cat=1

I'm sure you can find more and at varying prices !

Oh - hello Carl.

Edited September 15, 2008 by Sean Dezart

[Lazeum]

Sean,

My point is the use of those plates could be fraudulent. Knowing the value that an early Z could have compared to a more recent one might encourage some people to do so.

Regarding the 260/280 Z story. I was more thinking about something done in the US where 260/280 are pretty common.

Before I've got my 240 I was not aware about all the differences between different S30. I believe most of the changes are pretty small. I read Z forums for 4 years, I’m still sure that I do not know all the differences. Some are pretty obvious (but you can change them) such as taillight or hood vents.

When I first saw the ads I was surprised to see the VIN being sold as it looks like the “special kit to change your “regular” Z into a low VIN number” which makes no sense in the US (it was on eBay US) except regarding value or special cases where there is no VIN to register the car (which is a valid point). So yes I was disappointed regarding the fact that I thought ti was only sold for the low VIN reason.

As I stated in my post (page 1), in other countries such as France, this item could save a Z which would not be street legal otherwise.

Knowing now the context, I understand the purpose of Sean’s action.

I did not even know he was the one who has done the auction. I was also concerned that a member from the forum was using the French board to make the sale “more honest”. Sean is someone I trust, he’s also the one who makes the Z community to exist in France (=admin). I give full credit to Sean regarding Z’s. (…and I don’t say that to remain on the French board! )

Edited September 15, 2008 by Lazeum