eBay audacity

[doradox]

The wall collage would be kinda cool but I agree that the price is steep. I can't say I don't think someone else shouldn't be able to purchase it for that purpose though. Assuming legality in whatever country/state they may reside. Who knows, in another 50-100 years that may be the only part of a car anyone will be allowed to own. I applaud your efforts to take steps to help prevent one of the other uses for those items. Ebay was a stupid place to try to sell IF one were thinking only crooks would buy. The exposure reduces the value by increasing the risk to those who stand to lose if caught skirting the law. I think an argument could be made that because they were offered out in the open that the seller did not, as he claims, have bad intent. Who knows.

Steve

[geezer]

The line to flame me begins on the left.

I'll be in the other line, right behind you offering support.

[Sean Dezart]

Evidently, I have nothing to hide or this would never have been offered for sale in public. I am also the legal owner of the car and have all the papers to prove that.

I should, however, have offered the chassis complete plus papers - the fact that I didn't was reported to Ebay who subsequently removed the listing - quite correctly in view of your federal laws (of which I am unaware - ie the publication of a registration document). I included the reg. doc. to prove that the papers were in my posession in an attempt to indicate that the souvenirs were from a legal source and not from a stolen car or whatever !

Question, whilst selling the chassis, numbers and papers, I suspected that it might be used later to defraud - should I have still sold ? If someone offers to buy your second Z (a project car) and you supect that it might end up 'shady' - do you sell ? The banks're closing in on you, recession is just around the corner, the presidential nominees can't agree on what to do (intervention or not), Dubbyas' adminsitration is almost nationalising one or more financial institutions and you're gonna refuse a legal sale of your property because you suspect that maybe your ex-property might be exploited illegally ? It's only us poor and middle class that can't afford to have principles but it's mostly just have that have 'em !

The sale of the souvenirs was never intended to be furtive - that's why I chose Ebay !

Now, the chassis (what's is left of it) is going to be exchanged for a 260Z 2+2. Why ? Because the prospective owner has 3x 240Zs and needs certain panels - the chassis is not being sold with the souvenirs to ensure that it doesn't resurface again under the number 4944.

Which means that at the moment, the chassis number 4944 is still for sale (with chassis) but as soon as the chassis leaves my place - the sale is cancelled !

If someone had bought (will buy ?) the souvenirs and not wanted the chassis, then I would (will ?) have sold them..........but you have (almost) all stated that they're too expensive !

I quite honestly never expected anyone to buy them but to make sure, put them up at a price that I considered too much for a simple wall-hanger but not enough to put people right off !

It does open the question "why are 'series 1' cars coveted so ?"

If this had been number 131,029 there wouldn't have been so much fuss because there wouldn't be an obvious financial gain by 'developing' a 'lost series 1' car.

There was someone in the UK interested in the complete car in order to salvage parts for his own 1970 Z but my price of $1850 put him off !

Why did I advertise on Ebay.com and not another Ebay site ?

1) there are more worldwide Z customers who trawl 'your' site so it'll get more exposure (again, not really inkeeping with a secretive, shady deal)

2) it's only in your country where the 'series 1' cars have a percieived higher value - in any other country, no-one would give it a second look !

So, one might suggest that it's the US Z community who have made this sale attractive by encouraging the rise in value of 'series 1 'cars........?

I repeat my question - why do they have a higher book value ?

Obviously because they are more desirable but then why are they desirable - imo, they're not better cars; in Europe, cars of very good (but far from perfect) condition are worth far more than early cars, even if in some cases, the earlier car would not have to conform to emissions tests and be illeligible for road tax (ps in France we don't pay road tax !)

In the UK (I don't know of any other countries where this happens but considering that on the continent, all the cars are like yours - LHD and therefore it's even easier to 'adopt' another identity, especially if the car coming from the States is in MUCH better condition than any potential donor car) there are only about 155 240Zs left, a few more perhaps loitering abandoned in peoples backyards and most of 'em need welding every year to get 'em through the MOT (technical check). Some people have imported clean cars from the States and switched IDs but they have obviously removed the HLS30....... and replaced it with their original HS30....... just as Alan was suggesting. There are obviously some adaptations required on the firewall to accomodate the steering coloum etc in a different place - some go even further and replace the entire firewall !

For better or for worse, this keeps more (and better condition and therefore safer) 240Zs in a country where to own one aint as easy or nearly as cheap as in the States. Obviously, if their donor car was dated after Dec. 1972 they won't qualify for zero road tax but they will have a perfect shell !

On the other hand, if they want a pre-'73 car then they can import one from you and keep it LHD - thereofre running on its' HLS30 number, signifying it to be pre blah, blah, blah !

Have I opened a can of worms ? Were you not aware that this was possible and indeed being don ?

It's not new because since the early '80s, cars were being shipped over for GTO kit conversions and there have been and still are several commercial entreprises still importing them - al of which is quite legal and they're not concerned about end use - it aint their problem is it ? Do you worry about the drain of Zs to the old world ?

When are you going to block the sale of every Z leaving the States ?

How many 240Zs are left in the States now - any ideas ? In France, there are less than 100 out of 675 ish imported.

In all of Europe, there can be no more than 400 - I wonder how many of those were first sold in the USA.......

[hls30.com]

Sean,

What your ebay sale effectively advertised was:

Attention thieves!

Turn less than $2000 and a day or two into at least $10,000!

Add this paperwork and parts kit to a 72/73 z(at least three of which are on ebay for BIN of $300 to $700 right now), put the car in storage for a little while, then post your newly found low vin on ebay! and watch the bidding frenzy begin! Be sure to collect either cash/western union, or use a Yahoo email account to set up paypal!

If any one asks too many questions, give them answers to make the car less desireable, if the questions define a newby, set the hook!

You don't realize it, but you took the most dificult part of that scheeme and built a DIY kit! It is the difficulty with finding and transporting a rusted out low vin that makes this "investment" more difficult. You packaged it, marketed it and made it as prettty as a tourist with his wallet about to fall out of his pocket!

Not your intention-no more than losing the wallet was the only thing the tourist planned for his day, but none the less an opportunity for a thief was the result!

It isn't about importing/exporting, or rebuilding a legitimate car with a paperwork issue it is about giving a thief an opportunity to turn a sows ear into a silk purse for long enough to get money and get away, leaving someone stuck with something that is not what they paid for.

Will

[Six_Shooter]

Am I the only one that thinks this might have been bought by someone legit, and used in a way that would not be to defraud?

Whether you like it or not cars are being re-vinned regularly, and some for even legitimate reasons. Personally, if I had a car that was legitmatly mine and would cost me hundreds to thousands of dollars, months of time to register with the original VIN, due to loosing the original documents, or could buy a complete set of new tags that would take me about a day to install, for a couple hundred dollars, I think I'd go the latter route. I've been around people that have been down that road before, getting the run-around about the ownership documents, being investigated as criminal (when that is not the case), etc, no thanks, I'll take the easier route in this case. But I guess I have some concious, I'd try and find a VIN of the same year and options (Not that there is any option or chassis specific information in the HS/HLS30 VIN tags).

Are we living in a world where everybody thinks like a thief now?

[hls30.com]

Am I the only one that thinks this might have been bought by someone legit, and used in a way that would not be to defraud?

Whether you like it or not cars are being re-vinned regularly, and some for even legitimate reasons. Personally, if I had a car that was legitmatly mine and would cost me hundreds to thousands of dollars, months of time to register with the original VIN, due to loosing the original documents, or could buy a complete set of new tags that would take me about a day to install, for a couple hundred dollars, I think I'd go the latter route. I've been around people that have been down that road before, getting the run-around about the ownership documents, being investigated as criminal (when that is not the case), etc, no thanks, I'll take the easier route in this case. But I guess I have some concious, I'd try and find a VIN of the same year and options (Not that there is any option or chassis specific information in the HS/HLS30 VIN tags).

Are we living in a world where everybody thinks like a thief now?

No, We are living in a world where everyone can be touched by thieves, and taking away their opportunities is really our only defense.

Will

[sblake01]

Thieves will find that 'Attention thieves' announcemant whether it's blatant, subtle, intended, or non intended. That would be why Sean posted sort of a disclaimer in the ad. You can't assume that the kit will be used either fraudulently or legitimately as a seller; that's in the hands of the buyer. There are many legitametely sold items that are used for purposes other than what they were intented for. Everywhere; not just on eBay.

[hls30.com]

That pretty much is my point, but selling something and alluding to its non intended purpose pretty much is a big unententional sign the less honest in the crowd to go Hmmmmm.

It was a mistake to sell that on ebay in my eyes, that doesn't make it wrong for anyone but me. I guess I take more responsibility than most people for polluting my environment with the things I cast off for free or for money.

Admittedly nothing is going to stop a thief who is determined to get something, but most are opportunists, waiting for an easy score, and when you give them anonymous access to a kit with how to instructions...sounds like pollution to me.

Will

[Sean Dezart]

Are you so sure that if I'd sold the VIN and later seen the car for sale that I wouldn't have reported it ?

If it had been sold and nobody ever heard of it again - no-one would be the wiser - maybe it was adorning another chassis, maybe just hanging around on a wall as some sons' pressie to his dad (who for one reason or another can't drive) so he (the dad) may claim to 'own' 4944 and be part of this forum.......

We're all hasty to judge but what would you be saying if the ad had read (included stripped chassis) ? You would never know if the buyer had taken delivery of everything or just the VIN ! Hell, if it left my place, I wouldn't know either - it could have been cut out before entering a container bound stateside.......

The difference is that I advertised it seperately for which I regret as I didn't think of thievery stateside...sorry, it's not in my nature to think that way !

That said, YOU lot have encouraged the thieves by valuing such early cars so highly.....AND I STILL HAVEN'T SEEN ANYONE DEFEND THE HIGHER VALUE OF EARLY CARS ! Sorry, I'm hoarse now but explain to me why ?

And for all those stone casters - how many among you have altered your cars in such a way to enhance performance (engine, brakes, suspension, tyres, strut bars).....? To increase the performance and encourage increased velocity and speed is surely contrary to your states laws and speeding kills (so they say) !

C'mon lighten up - you're all arguing about the format of the ad. - not even the content but for what was missing ! BTW, it's still here for sale.....

[hls30.com]

Sean

I'm not sure you who you are addressing in your post, but if you reported doing something illegal...you would have consequences for having done it. Over here turning yourself in does not absolve you of responsibility or consequence.

Unfortunately most states are not set up to handle any but the 17 digit format, and there is absolutely no standard for entering vins with less than 17 digits between states, add to that many states do not require a title on older cars, so unless you report it to the proper authorities in all 50 states-and think of all of the transfers and time that would take-reporting it to any ten agencies and having anything meaningful come out of the report is a pipe dream-unless it sold in the state the title you have is from.

If the ad had been for the entire stripped chassis with nothing cut out, you would have excluded the majority of the thieves because of the logistics, paper trail and sheer work involved-when you add anonymity and ease to any transaction you invite people to step out of their persona-what happens anonymously stays anonymous-selling the get out of jail (consequences) free. Having no consequence leaves only you conscience as a objection-A lot of people will make different choices with consequences out of the picture. Locks keep honest people honest by limiting opportunity, given opportunity and no consequence, what would you do differently?

The auction effectively gave someone that scenario.

Will

Defending the value of earlier cars isn't necessary, look at ebay sales, they sell for more-why isn't important, the fact is that they do. I can explain why the sky is the color it is, but does that explanation change the color of the sky?

Edited September 19, 2008 by hls30.com

[HS30-H]

I am not a "tattle-tale" but I have made sure that CarFax has been notified, and that inquiries have been sent out to the FBI and Interpol through various contacts in law enforcement. To a person, they have wholeheartedly agreed with me.

The FBI and Interpol???!!!!

I don't know about the FBI ( didn't Mulder and Scully retire anyway? ) but I'm sure such a vital snippet of data will have been 'filed' in the round container in the corner with the open top. Not much chance of Inspector Clouseau getting involved I think you'll find.

Sean

I'm not sure you who you are addressing in your post, but if you reported doing something illegal...you would have consequences for having done it. Over here turning yourself in does not absolve you of responsibility or consequence.

But he's not "over here", is he? He's in France. I've heard of 'the long arm of the law', but that's ridiculous. Are you saying that you honestly believe that Sean is going to be prosecuted by US law enforcement over this matter? Personally I can't imagine for one moment that there will be any repercussions for Sean over this. Have the men in trenchcoats turned up at your door yet, Sean?

Can I remind the more rabid witchburners in our midst that Sean's ad on the UK Z Club website is still in place, and a great opportunity to kick up a fuss is going begging. Why not sign up "over there" and tell everybody what the USA 'does' to little ex-Pat Englishmen living in France who offer naughty naughty temptations on eBay USA?

Sean, you are a very, very, very naughty boy, and quite silly too.

[hls30.com]

Alan,

Taken from context your point makes sense, but exactly in who in France is he going to report a buyer in the USA to that will care-much less be in a position to do anything about it?

Personally I know people are going to do what people are going to do, and that is fine with me, but as you are so fond of reminding everyone, the Z community is more than this or that side of the pond!

Will

Edited September 19, 2008 by hls30.com