4 errr, 3 matching series 1 caps on ebay

[7T1240]

If the wheels are date coded 4/71 and 5/71 wouldn't they have come from a 1971 240z?

-Mike

Edited, thanks Mike.

Reason for Editing: 3:30 a.m. post time makes for a lousy accuracy check.:cross-eye

Gary S.

[geezer]

Because of this, my assumption has been that there was some overlap of the two styles at the factory, where at some point both styles were employed simultaneously, perhaps even on the same car. My hubcaps, like the set in the ebay auction, are not a matched set, but they may have left the factory paired up in this fashion.

A very reasonable assumption that shouldn't be too far stretched for anyone's imagination. Especially when the stock supply of "early" caps began to dwindle and the new design was being brought online. There is no evidence of the "later" new style caps being delivered to a customer early on though, even if they did exist. It seems to be one of the changes made by Nissan to improve the vehicle without any need of notice or purge date to be issued outside of the factory.

[26th-Z]

I want to reference this thread http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32485&highlight=Nissan+hubcaps here. Post #21 on. Does anyone have dealer brochures or early photographs of the Skyline which would show us the style in 1968? That would be interesting.

Photos:

1970 Geneva Auto Show

1970 New York Auto Show

1970 Press Introductory

All show the valve stem hole centered on a spoke.

I also want to note that in my search of photos to post I looked at a lot of the mock-up prototypes and they all have different wheels / caps than the cap style we are discussing. Something to discuss with Matsuo san the next time I see him!

Edited December 7, 2008 by 26th-Z

[geezer]

I want to reference this thread http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32485&highlight=Nissan+hubcaps here. Post #21 on. Does anyone have dealer brochures or early photographs of the Skyline which would show us the style in 1968? That would be interesting.

The very thought I had when Alan posted the Skyline caps photos in that thread. I would be very surprised if the caps depicted were put into production prior to 1970. I think we will find the dates of their use coincides exactly with all models.

[HS30-H]

The very thought I had when Alan posted the Skyline caps photos in that thread. I would be very surprised if the caps depicted were put into production prior to 1970. I think we will find the dates of their use coincides exactly with all models.

Pics as supporting evidence. From the left:

*C30-series Laurel - 1800 DX model - October 1968

*C30-series Laurel - 2000DX model - February 1969

*C10-series Skyline - 2000GT 4-door model - February 1969

*C10-series Skyline - 2000GT-X model - February 1970

I'd say that the pressing itself looks pretty much the same all the way through the late '68 through early 1970 period, with the difference being in paint finish / accenting, and of course the different centre emblems.

On the '69 Tokyo show stand, you can see that the hubcaps of the Fairlady Z-L model and what they were calling the 'Fairlady Z Export Model' look to be exactly the same, with the exception of the centre emblems. The tyre valve hole is adjacent to a spoke in both.

[geezer]

I'd say that the pressing itself looks pretty much the same all the way through the late '68 through early 1970 period, with the difference being in paint finish / accenting, and of course the different centre emblems.

Thanks for the example pics Alan, but they are hit & miss as far as supporting evidence and prove nothing conclusive. Allow me to explain. The first two black & white pics of the '68 & '69 C30 series Laurels show caps that appear to be the same as the next two pics of the '69 & '70 C10 series Skylines. We can't see the "slots" in the first two pics but can see them in last two. They are distinctly different, having more of an elongated slot, which would require a different or modified press to punch out the blanks than what was used for the S30s. It appears that all the valve stems are positioned over a slot. The same can be said for the example Skyline caps in post #21 of the other thread. At least in that pic we can see the backside and one thing is holding true so far. If the valve stem is centered over a slot it also has the new improved retention clips. The valve stem hole relocation was most likely nessesary for the crimping process of the new improved retention clip ring. By the way, it might help to briefly describe how these hubcaps are built. The blanks are stamped on a press to create the 3 dimensional shape. The retention clip ring is a separate piece that has the ends spotwelded together to form a ring. This ring in turn is positioned on the now 3 dimensioned blank onto another die where the edges of the blank are folded over and crimped tightly over the retention clip ring creating the hubcap assembly, sans center cap. Without going into any more detail than this, I would suggest we are comparing apples and oranges here by referencing Laurel & Skyline caps.

Edited December 8, 2008 by geezer

[Arne]

Hi Dan and all.

I have a set of 4 "D" hubcaps and steelies that I purchased used several years ago. The wheels are coded 4/71 and 5/71. Two of the hubcaps have the valve stem opening below the D, the other two have the valve stem opening above the D. The seller was the original owner of a 1971 240-Z. He told me they were in service less than a year, then replaced by slots. I don't recall him saying anything about losing and replacing hubcaps.

Because of this, my assumption has been that there was some overlap of the two styles at the factory, where at some point both styles were employed simultaneously, perhaps even on the same car. My hubcaps, like the set in the ebay auction, are not a matched set, but they may have left the factory paired up in this fashion.

Gary S.

Gary, I find this terribly interesting, as it points out the multitudes of production variations that we have seen. The set of hubcaps (and matching rims) I sold to Mike B a while back are similar vintage - the rims on that set were all four dated 4-71. In that case, all four hubcaps were matched, what we are now calling the "later" style.

[geezer]

This has been a thread of discovery for me and I think we will be able to nail down a few points, that are coming to light (for me anyhow). Here is what I think I know about the D caps used on the S30:

-The S30 D caps are distinct from any other caps in Nissan's inventory and cannot be considered an "off the shelf" part that was shared with any other model, although they are very similar in appearance.

-Both the "early" and "later" improved versions of the S30 D caps co-existed before production began, as evidenced by prototype photographs and slides. Sometime after the first printings of early sales pamphlets and brochures, which depict the "early" style of D cap, Nissan decided to feature the "later" improved D cap in the Instructional Slides and the Service Manual (P/N 99999-20016), which is mainly concerned with the HLS30-U model.

-All "early" D caps have the valve stem hole centered adjacent to a spoke and have the less agressive, spaced apart retaining clips.

-All "later" D caps have the valve stem hole centered adjacent to a slot and have the more agressive, continuous, tightly spaced retaining clips.

-I believe there was an overlap period where both "early" and "later" D caps were intermixed during production with cars occasionally and randomly recieving mismatched sets until the "early" D caps stock supply was completely depleted. It will be difficult if not impossible, to establish any kind of purge date, because of the limited data base. I think it will fit the same scenerio as the 2400 cam covers, where an approximation will have to suffice.

These are just my opinions of what transpired and I agree that this would certainly make for a great topic of discussion if an opportunity to converse with Matsuo san arises, although I can attest to the fact that it can be difficult to recall and differentiate model years, details, or events of so many years ago off the top of your head when asked.

[HS30-H]

Thanks for the example pics Alan, but they are hit & miss as far as supporting evidence and prove nothing conclusive. Allow me to explain. The first two black & white pics of the '68 & '69 C30 series Laurels show caps that appear to be the same as the next two pics of the '69 & '70 C10 series Skylines. We can't see the "slots" in the first two pics but can see them in last two. They are distinctly different, having more of an elongated slot, which would require a different or modified press to punch out the blanks than what was used for the S30s............

.............Without going into any more detail than this, I would suggest we are comparing apples and oranges here by referencing Laurel & Skyline caps.

Yes, I agree that the slots are different sizes. The overall design is - perhaps almost remarkably - similar though, don't you think?

If a designer had been given a clean sheet of paper on which to design a hubcap for a range of variants in a new model series of cars that would be making a public debut in late 1969, I would have expected him to come up with something that looked - can we say - perhaps a little more different from the '68 Laurel and early '69 Skyline hubcaps? Instead, the cars ended up with with something very similar, also made by IKI. Is that a fair comment, do you think? My point being that - with all the cost constraints, and necessity to keep things simple - I think the cars ended up with what is essentially a modified version of an IKI hubcap that already existed.......

It was Matsuo san himself who planted the seeds of all this in my mind in the first place! I was discussing the question of wheels with him ( actually, it started off on a discussion about tyres..... ) and he told me that he really wanted the Z ( meaning all variants, I believe ) to have attractive alloy wheels that were in keeping with the sporty image of the car, but this was stymied due to cost. He told me that he and his team also aimed at a more attractive steel wheel design that did not require a hubcap ( I presume that this would be something along the lines of the four-spoked and multi-hole designs that we can see on some of the clay mockup and prototype photos ) but this too was ruled out. I don't believe that the plain and workmanlike TOPY wheels, covered by the IKI hubcaps, were what he originally had in mind at all.

The S30 D caps are distinct from any other caps in Nissan's inventory and cannot be considered an "off the shelf" part that was shared with any other model, although they are very similar in appearance.

Point of order here if I may; What we are calling the "D caps" ( as seen on the final production Export cars ) are essentially - at least as far as I can see - the same basic pressing as the 'Deluxe' / 'Z-L' model domestic items, but with a different centre 'ornament'. Of course, the domestic ornament did not have a 'D' for Datsun on it - so I find it hard to call the domestic version a 'D' cap. Hope you take the point in the spirit in which it is intended.

While I had the scanner fired up and Photoshop running, I'd thought I'd show some comparison shots of hubcaps all in the same place and on the same day, with the possibility that they could be considered as further food for thought. In this particular case the place is the October 1969 Tokyo Auto Show, and the cars are, from the left:

*C10-series Skyline 1800DX

*C30-series Laurel 'D'

*C10-series Skyline 2000GT

*S30-series "Fairlady Z Export Version" Datsun 240Z

*S30-series Fairlady Z-L

[geezer]

...Point of order here if I may; What we are calling the "D caps" ( as seen on the final production Export cars ) are essentially - at least as far as I can see - the same basic pressing as the 'Deluxe' / 'Z-L' model domestic items, but with a different centre 'ornament'. Of course, the domestic ornament did not have a 'D' for Datsun on it - so I find it hard to call the domestic version a 'D' cap. Hope you take the point in the spirit in which it is intended.

Thank you for the correction. I agree, the S30 wheel covers cannot be rightfully called a "D cap" unless the D center ornament is in place. This caused me to look for the name used by Nissan, for a blanket description of the S30 wheel covers prior to the attachment of a center ornament. I had these illustrations saved and am not sure who to credit for them. Other than the part number and superceded part number this is all I could come up with, simply...."Type A".

I noticed that the "Z" center ornament is shown in the US & Canada Parts Catalog also. Wonder if my local Nissan dealer has any on a shelf collecting dust?

Yes, It certainly appears that a single wheel cover design was used as the inspiration behind all these caps shown, including the S30 Type A. I would also think cost saving was the primary reason for a simple tweak of an existing design. Looks like a feat we could have knocked off before breakfast. It often makes me wonder what could have evolved if the reins were loosened on the design team. Probably something spectacular, but prohibitively expensive for most of us.:disappoin

[26th-Z]

Thought I would post some pictures of various wheels used in the design of the S30. These are crops of larger pictures - sorry for the quality - but the images are interesting.

The blue car is from a Matsuo design sketch. The other pictures are from various prototype mock-ups and the file is labeled to the year. Finally, a Silvia production wheel / cap. Notice the similarity to one of the prototypes?

Edited December 9, 2008 by 26th-Z

[kats]

Hi,

I show you an interesting cover, which is very similar for S30's cap. My friend has 4 of them,he said it might be used for export Skyline because it has D mark. Same as S30, in Japan we never call Z nor Skyline "DATSUN" .Interesting, The left tag has company name, "Yotsuya seizou-bu (co.,ltd)" not IKI (Ichi-koh kohgyou; Ichi-Koh Industries).

By the way, the red dot mirror has name " EVER WING" on it, later on it has "IKI" took place. I do not know EVER WING is a brand name of IKI.

A Post card, Mr.Matsuo sent me 6th Aug 2002, if you look carefully and can read Japanese, he said some important things...

" Basically a RHD car was used for developing, notorious cost cut forced parking break remain RH side for LHD car..."

" Hub cap is borrowed its design from GC10..."

And an unusual picture, Fair lady-Z got D mark caps!! And valve stem position!!The back ground of this photo taken must be Nissan studio, we can see some time this white concrete back ground in some factory pictures.

kats

Edited December 9, 2008 by kats
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