Let's show vintage racing pictures. I'll start.

[Carl Beck]

TrackSide Photo has tons of vintage race cars/trucks on their web site now.

See: http://Tracksidephoto.com

Remember the "BRE Datsun 510" that was on e-bay last year... and it was disputed that BRE built the car? Well here is a picture of the Baja Truck the seller ran at the Baja... Conner's efforts were pretty successful for Datsun..

Also a picture of the BRE Baja 510 that John Morton and Peter Brock ran in 1972.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Trackside Photo's shown with credits/copyright notice - and with permission.

[HS30-H]

Page "Updated 28 Feb. 2009", and reads:

"In 1978, Bob Speakman's Z was the first Datsun 240Z to finish the 24 Hours of Daytona, finishing 16th over-all and 4th in the GT-U Class."

So it's still wrong.....

" ................ "

Would it help if somebody explained it to you?

[conedodger]

Let's go back to 1976 for a moment. Elliot Forbes-Robinson would take over driving duties for Bob Sharp who was injured in an accident in 1975. Bob had won the SCCA C-production national championship in '72, '73, and '75 having given it up in '74 to Walt Maas in his 260Z. Bob was campaigning a 280Z in SCCA C-production and a 240Z in IMSA Grand Touring Under 2.5 liter displacement. He was GTU champion in 1975. However eight of the eleven IMSA GTU races in 1976 went to Brad Frisselle and his 240Z. Brad drove to victory with John Morton in the Mid Ohio 6-hour and the Road Atlanta 1000k. Elliot Forbes-Robinson won only at Pocono where he finished a spectacular third overall. Here is a Datsun press release photo of the two cars from 1976. Sorry for the quality. The original documents are really old.

Brad's car showed up at a Walter Mitty race in Atlanta in 2006 and I managed to grab a few shots of it.

These are some great shots of Brad Frisselle's Z! It just happens that I live in Northern California not far from a shop that generally restores and races vintage race cars... Bruce Cannepa is known for the Porsche cars he does but I noticed on his website that he is selling the restored Frizzelle car. Interesting to note for those of you who like to argue history, Bruce claims this to be the first chassis imported to the United States. Yes? No? Let the fur fly! http://www.finecars.cc/en/detail/car/7313/index.html

My Porsche friends think the 914 might be Adrian Gang but no one is sure... Anyone here have access to old car numbers from the day? I am assuming based on the Kitty Litter that is Road Atlanta. What corner? Is this picture below from the 70's or from a vintage race later on?

[Ron Carter]

The Frisselle car is not the first 240Z chassis into the United States.

Although it might be tough to prove it as most likely the Vin number has been removed from the car, it was not an important aspect of the car at the time it was built, because it was a purpose built race car and with all the modifications to this car there is a good likelyhood that it is gone.

I had a chance to have dinner with Don Devendorf and John Knepp recently. Don campaigned the Frisselle car painted in his livery, and number, before he took delivery of his 280ZX. Both of these guys are extremely bright, and John in particular is very detail minded. He remembers everything. According to both of them this car was not the "first" chassis, and that the claim that it is the first chassis is total bunk...

There are all kinds of stories about this car, very few of them are correct. I wonder why Bruce thinks this is the first chassis?

Ron

Edited March 3, 2009 by ron carter

[Carl Beck]

I wonder why Bruce thinks this is the first chassis?

Ron

Hi Ron:

I wondered the same thing. In July of 2007 Lew Kinse, of Canepa Design called, as a follow-up to an e-mail I had sent earlier related to the VIN on the Frisselle Z. He ask where he could find the VIN on the chassis, as the dash and data tags were all missing. I told him where to look on the firewall, then sent a follow-up e-mail with photo's of other cars VIN's stamped into their firewall, and a brief explanation of the VIN structure etc.

He replied that he would let me know what they found, if they could remove any of the paint. I never did get an answer from him after that.

Could be that it was no longer an issue after the new owner paid for it. Nonetheless an amazing piece of SCCA and Datsun Racing History.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Ron Carter]

Hi Carl,

It is a fantastic car, I have not seen it person, but sure would like to.

As they say, it would look better in my Garage

Regardless, the car is back at Canepa again, for sale, and as far as I know it has not sold. The price tag is steep, north of $325K last I heard.

In this economy not the best time to be selling these toys...

Thanks for comfirming my suspicion, no VIN, it could be any car...

I am sure some members here will look at the photos of the car and say it is a 280Z. For those out there who don't know, many racing 240Z were "modified" to look like later cars as Datsun wanted the cars racing to appear like the current cars for sale. So this is a 240Z with 280Z tail lights.

[Kronoss]

Here's a few I recently discovered posted on a Corvette racing site (vettemod.com)...35mm enlargements taken at Road Atlanta, not sure what year...1972, 73? There were several other interesting non-Datsun images there as well, F5000, Can-Am, David Hobbs, Donohue, etc.

–Mark Atkinson

[conedodger]

Would it help if somebody explained it to you?

I would certainly be interested in any evidence you might have to support your point if you could find a tone that is a bit more, shall we say - respectful? Thanks in advance for that effort.

[HS30-H]

I would certainly be interested in any evidence you might have to support your point..........

It has already been pointed out that there were 240Zs that finished the race in 1975 ( the Mabrito & Steel car in a pretty good 26th O/A and 8th in GT-U at 420 laps, and the Buzbee, Ross & Frates car 32nd O/A and 9th in GT-U), and 1976 ( Frates, Ross & Buzbee again at 38th O/A and 15th in GTU at 274 laps, whilst Mabrito & Steel got a DNF with 47th O/A, 18th in GTU and 185 laps ). So why does the zhome.com page on the ex-Speakman car read that it ".... was the first Datsun 240Z to finish the 24 Hours of Daytona....."?

At the very least this is misleading, and fairly disrespectful of the efforts of the '75 and '76 entrants - which were arguably blazing a trail for others to follow. That 16th place O/A in 1978 was a fine achievement, but surely everybody can see that the zhome.com page is now worded misleadingly after previously simply being........ wrong?

......if you could find a tone that is a bit more, shall we say - respectful? Thanks in advance for that effort.

Well, respect is a two-way street, isn't it? I think I'm giving around the same amount of respect as I'm being given, to be honest. It's not a two-way dialogue, is it?

Unless you spotted a post that I can't see?

Further back in this thread you'll see Carl Beck calling into question the data published on racingsportscars.com ( a well-researched and well-respected site ) when it is his own site that carries the errors in question. That page in question wrong for over seven years - misleading people that I have personally had to correct - and then it is "updated" rather than simply being corrected.......

I guess you must see it all quite differently.

[conedodger]

It has already been pointed out that there were 240Zs that finished the race in 1975 ( the Mabrito & Steel car in a pretty good 26th O/A and 8th in GT-U at 420 laps, and the Buzbee, Ross & Frates car 32nd O/A and 9th in GT-U), and 1976 ( Frates, Ross & Buzbee again at 38th O/A and 15th in GTU at 274 laps, whilst Mabrito & Steel got a DNF with 47th O/A, 18th in GTU and 185 laps ). So why does the zhome.com page on the ex-Speakman car read that it ".... was the first Datsun 240Z to finish the 24 Hours of Daytona....."?

At the very least this is misleading, and fairly disrespectful of the efforts of the '75 and '76 entrants - which were arguably blazing a trail for others to follow. That 16th place O/A in 1978 was a fine achievement, but surely everybody can see that the zhome.com page is now worded misleadingly after previously simply being........ wrong?

Well, respect is a two-way street, isn't it? I think I'm giving around the same amount of respect as I'm being given, to be honest. It's not a two-way dialogue, is it?

Unless you spotted a post that I can't see?

Further back in this thread you'll see Carl Beck calling into question the data published on racingsportscars.com ( a well-researched and well-respected site ) when it is his own site that carries the errors in question. That page in question wrong for over seven years - misleading people that I have personally had to correct - and then it is "updated" rather than simply being corrected.......

I guess you must see it all quite differently.

I don't see it either way. I freely admit that I do not know. But, from the start it appears you are going after Carl as if he isn't an authority. On that I do have an opinion. I just think you would get a little further in your quest for truth if you approach the people who disagree with you in a little, shall we say, gentler approach.

My life is dedicated to exposing the differences in cultures and I do know that the English argue differently. But it may help given the lack of dimension we have here on internet forum if you first state your premise as a question. Isn't it true that...? And then support your premise with cited sources. In academia we really have little respect for websites in general. They are seldom peer reviewed and often contain revisionist ideas. Let's start with that. Your referenced website is no better than ZHome in my eyes and perhaps not as good in that I have known of Carl Beck for a decade and I have seen him seek the truth as it regards the Z Car relentlessly in that time.

I have always known his mind to be open. If you know the truth and can prove it, or at least can cloud the truth as he knows it, I am sure he would be open. If you find a more respectful tone... Again, thanks for your effort in that regard...

I am not an arbitrator. Address yourself to Carl. However, it may already be too late...

[HS30-H]

'conedodger',

Thanks for your advice. Nice of "Academia" to come and pay me a personal visit, and useful to know that "....the English argue differently" when posting on what is actually an international forum.

I'm afraid I shall be sticking with my opinion ( obviously differing from yours ), and I think that's healthy as far as this forum goes. Otherwise we might as well rename it the 'Carl Beck Fan Club' and let it become the replacement for his dearly departed Mailing List, in which he was able to edit all posts before they even hit the screen.

I see you are damning the racingsportscars.com site too. Quite extraordinary. You and Mr B. could be two peas in a pod. If the data on the ex-Speakman car at zhome.com was originally right, then why has it now been "updated"? And if what is written on that page now ( implying that the Doyle, Speakman & Maffucci 16th O/A finish in 1978 was the first finish for a 240Z at the Daytona 24hrs ) is correct, then please post your evidence to prove that the other cars we have mentioned don't count.

And if you have any other 'advice' for me on how to deal with your friends, then please send it to me by PM.

Thanks.

[NissanMaster]

I would prefer as friend a good man ignorant then a man who claims clever but have no courtesy!