Let's show vintage racing pictures. I'll start.

[coop]

John Wilkins' and Coop's Zs and others at the Pahrump VARA vintage race in 2015.  Hopefully it is OK to post these here.

[240260280z]

On 2016-09-24 at 8:34 AM, 26th-Z said:

Yea, what the hell are you doing?   One of my major complaints about one of my favorite threads is that there is very little information or description of the picture; when, where, who, etc.  Every photo just seems to scream; "Tell me more!  More!"  Perhaps it's not a complaint rather a disappointment.

As Alan aptly points out, "aero" was in its infancy at the time and tire grip was the difficult point when the cars became more efficient.  There was a tremendous amount of experimentation going on.  I just have to re-post this picture.  Look at that left front tire.  Is that awesome or what!?!!  Stand on it!

"If I had a time machine" I could go back and tell you" dude... just be happy I posted these.

[gogriz91]

I would love to build a tribute car modeled after this one.  Will have to research the details but I really like how simple everything is, will have to work on my fiberglass skills to build that grille fascia.

[gnosez]

There were a number of similar facia inserts available at least in Japan back in the day. I'm pretty sure those three holes are for the side air ducts and the last one would lead to the carbs.

Edited September 29, 2016 by gnosez

[HS30-H]

5 hours ago, gnosez said:

There were a number of similar facia inserts available at least in Japan back in the day.

For example, this magazine ad from 1970:

'Scuderia Nissan' - despite its name - was a private business and not directly connected to Nissan. They just specialised in making race parts for Nissan vehicles.   

[gnosez]

So which paint scheme came first

 

 

 

[conedodger]

An effort from a restoration shop in Kent, UK... Recent...

[gogriz91]

Of the different fascias I've seen between Zs and Celicas this is the one I prefer, thanks for the image Alan.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2016 by gogriz91

[260DET]

It's always interesting when you post some words in response to a picture or two as to how those words get treated, negatively or otherwise. Alan, while usually informative, also usually manages to include his typical negative interpretation of what was said when, this time and as usual,mine are comments or observations, not assertions of fact. The G nose comment was made on my observation of what most apparently consider the ultimate piece of S30 aero, my comment was that in reality it was not.  Which apparently is correct but some how or other was not an appropriate comment to make. 

Love it 

 

[HS30-H]

1 hour ago, 260DET said:

It's always interesting when you post some words in response to a picture or two as to how those words get treated, negatively or otherwise. Alan, while usually informative, also usually manages to include his typical negative interpretation of what was said when, this time and as usual,mine are comments or observations, not assertions of fact. The G nose comment was made on my observation of what most apparently consider the ultimate piece of S30 aero, my comment was that in reality it was not.  Which apparently is correct but some how or other was not an appropriate comment to make. 

Love it 

 

Look, it's really simple. I'm interested in FACTS. You posted some (I believe) uninformed opinion and I responded to it. That's how forums like this are supposed to work, no? If you think I was wrong, by all means come back with something to support your views.

I'm fairly confident that I know a thing or two about Nissan race cars - and race cars in general - for the period concerned, and it seems to me that you know a thing or two with respect to modern understanding of race car aerodynamics. I think it's unfair to point the finger at Nissan and imply that they "didn't know what they were doing" when - with the benefit of 45+ years of learning - we can can see that true aero understanding (downforce etc) was still in its infancy. Point the finger at Nissan and you have to point it at everyone. In the period we are talking about (say, 1970/71) even the likes of Porsche - a company with racing running through its veins - was making race cars with aerodynamic properties that were downright dangerous (cf 'Kurtz' and 'Langheck' 917s for example).

But who said the 'Grande Nose' was considered "the ultimate" anyway? I don't know anyone who does, but its what Nissan did and it's what we got. It was - in effect - a frame on which to hang various other appendages. Without homologating it Nissan would not have been able to progress with their race efforts on Groups 4 & 5 and we would not have seen the later developments on the IMSA cars, for instance. You stated that Nissan was trying to push air under the car, but the whole point of the 'Grande Nose' was to channel air over and around the car and to restrict the air flowing through the radiator and engine bay (KEY POINT: it had to be homologated, so it had to work on the road cars without making them overheat) and the intention was ALWAYS to put an air dam underneath it (the homologation road models even had the mounting points for one) and seal the whole thing off with an undertray. So clearly, saying that Nissan was trying to push air underneath the car is wrong...   

Offended? I don't think you need to be, and I think we should be able to debate without fear of upsetting anyone with the strength of our convictions. Like the 'Grande Nose', I'm not perfect (who knew?) but I'm here to talk cars and I care about this stuff. In your particular case I have noted a fairly constant theme of dissing certain aspects of the topic and I respond to you with that in mind. I might well be wrong, but by the same token you might be wrong about me. Like you, I only go on what I see on the page and what that makes me imagine.        

[26th-Z]

11 hours ago, gnosez said:

So which paint scheme came first

 

 

 

 

I think it would be difficult to associate the paint schemes, John, but you have an interesting point.  Wouldn't it be nice to know about when and where Yasukawa's picture was taken.  None-the-less, the BRE picture predates the Yasukawa photo.  The BRE picture is circa 1970-1971 and the Yasukawa picure is circa 1972-1973.  I suspect the top of the Yasukawa car is red with the lower portion of the fender stripe dark blue, just like the BRE car.

[conedodger]

On September 24, 2016 at 0:38 AM, HS30-H said:

Nissan - just like everybody else - were changing the aero packages on their cars virtually on a race-by-race basis. One of the main difficulties with introducing new bodywork parts within the framework of the JAF/FIA Group 4 and 5 rules was that they had to be evolutions of already homologated parts. Any radical change - like the 'Grande Nose' itself - had to have a fresh homologation. It wasn't simply a matter of bolting parts on a car and going racing...

Who said the 'G-nose' was "the ultimate"? The HS30-H 'Fairlady 240ZG' was a homologation model, made and sold to the general public with the express purpose of legalising aero and body parts for JAF/FIA Group 4 racing. The road car didn't come with any front spoiler/air dam/splitter because it wasn't necessary for the homologation (such parts could be legalised for race use by adding them as evolutions to the homologation) and Nissan fitted a variety of different spoilers to its race cars. At that time it was tyre technology which was the main limiting factor in 'grip'.

All absolutely true. And it wasn't just Nissan. Every manufacturer with a race effort or support operation evolved or homologated. My 914 is an example. I was able to find one of the 400 M471 "kits." Wind tunnel work was in its infancy, so everything was 'educated guess work' I'm sure.

My 914 is clearly a slow flying brick (not so aero) so Porsche went the route of trying to get as much tire to the ground I think...