Another 240Z exhaust goes NLA

[John Coffey]

So... who's willing to pay about $750 for a stainless Borla 2.25" exhaust that bolts up to the stock exhaust manifold and includes a Borla muffler?

Not me....

And that's why there's little aftermarket support for Datsuns. I talked with Borla at length about developing a full stainless exhaust for the 240Z, similar to what's available for the 350Z, RX8, STi, EVO, etc. and the $750 was a rough price assuming Borla could sell 50 of these a year.

You guys, the Datsun owners (and that includes me too), are the reason for the lack of aftermarket support. Most folks settle for a $300 muffler shop system and complain about paying that much. On the high end I build and install a few full mandrel bent race exhausts with merge collectors for S30s each year. Typical prices are $700 for mild steel and over $1,100 for stainless.

What's missing in the 240Z market is enough people willing to pay for something in between the low and high ends of the price range. There are lots of people willing to pay middle range prices in the Mustang, BMW, Camaro markets, but for some reason they are either hiding or non-existent in the Datsun world.

[WingZr0]

HAHA HAAAA

True that, true that no boubt, for the "period correct scene" it's great as

you suggest.

I agree with all that is said about what is said about the parts sitiution which

is why I'm trying to get some Exhaust designs of mine own made to replicate

at least some the Classic ANSA and other looks.

Trying to find the right folks who can do it for me though

ANNNNND Im' also in the process of getting another famouse

part replicated right now as we speak so look for that to be done by the

end the next month , and i'm not telling yet

~Z~

Well, yes, that's all well and good, Wing. But for me, and for my car which is driven regularly, it seems wrong to spend a bunch of money on a NOS part or system only to wear it out in a few years. I'd much rather have spent $300 on a complete (mandrel bent, aluminized) Monza that was modern construction but period looks, than $250 or so on an NOS Ansa rear section only, that is all mild steel, and will probably be irreplaceable when it rusts or the glass blows out.

Not to say that your prices are too high, they aren't, not for true NOS period parts. But true NOS doesn't make sense to me in a part that I think of as a consumable.

[Arne]

And that's why there's little aftermarket support for Datsuns. I talked with Borla at length about developing a full stainless exhaust for the 240Z, similar to what's available for the 350Z, RX8, STi, EVO, etc. and the $750 was a rough price assuming Borla could sell 50 of these a year.

You guys, the Datsun owners (and that includes me too), are the reason for the lack of aftermarket support. Most folks settle for a $300 muffler shop system and complain about paying that much. On the high end I build and install a few full mandrel bent race exhausts with merge collectors for S30s each year. Typical prices are $700 for mild steel and over $1,100 for stainless.

What's missing in the 240Z market is enough people willing to pay for something in between the low and high ends of the price range. There are lots of people willing to pay middle range prices in the Mustang, BMW, Camaro markets, but for some reason they are either hiding or non-existent in the Datsun world.

Some good points John, and all true, especially as relates to the Z owner doing a performance build. But 50 per year? That's a quite a stretch for S30s. I don't know that the market is that big, even if the buyers were willing to drop that much coin.

Which still points back to my perception of Z-fragmentation. Let's stick with exhausts as an example, knowing that the problem is not limited to just exhausts.

Even if Borla offered such a system, the few choices that are/would be available are all performance oriented systems. The hypothetical Borla, MSA's Twice Pipes, and the various MSA 2.5" systems. Where are the options for those of us doing stock restorations/refreshes, or mostly stock 'restifications'? Nada. If you have a stock exhaust manifold on an L24, your only choice is the "Premium" MSA 2.5" with downpipe. The limitations of that system (as well as the other MSA 2.5" and Twice Pipes) have been discussed extensively.

Where are the stock and period-style options? Compare to MGB again. (I continue to use MGBs as my example because I've done a B in the past. Plenty of other valid comparisons also.) Go to Moss Motors website. Click the link on the left for MGB/C, then the link for exhaust. For the chrome bumper MGB you'll find repro stock exhausts for ridiculously affordable prices, stainless stock-style repros for $371.95, repros of period performance exhausts (in stainless) for $325.95. And that's only from one (albeit large) vendor. Other vendors will have similar but often different choices.

Where are the OE-replacement exhausts for the 240Z? Or now that the Monza is gone, the period-style performance options?

The discontinuation of the Monza (IMO) again points to the fragmentation and small overall size of the Z market. There aren't enough of any one type of Z enthusiast to support aftermarket parts. There aren't enough performance guys to support a Borla system. There aren't enough stock restorations to support OE-style repros. Not enough period-looks people to support Monza. It's a slowly dying market.

The 240Z has been touted as the "next big collector car" for close to 20 years that I've been watching. It never quite gets there. And if it hasn't made it by now, it may never happen. The people who should be buying, restoring and modifying these cars are those who remember them when they were new. At 52, I'm at the young end of the group. If the older boomers haven't caught the 240Z bug by now, it's not going to happen, not in a big way.

And that means the parts situation will do nothing but continue to deteriorate. Sad, but probably true.

[ta240]

back when I bought the monza setup I was looking at Maremont parts that offered a stock 'looking' muffler and a separate pipe setup in the stock size that was prebent. Just went back on the sites and it no longer shoes either.

[jmortensen]

I guess I just don't see the problem. I think the reduction in ill fitting aftermarket exhaust systems is not terribly problematic. My guess is that those that don't build their own exhaust are going to the local muffler shop and having it done there. It doesn't mean that there aren't any Z's left, it means that people who need exhaust systems aren't buying the crap that gets sold from catalogs. Having seen most of them, I'm thoroughly unwhelmed.

DIY is still the best option on a cost/performance basis IMO. I bought a Super Turbo muffler from JC Whitney on sale for $25 along with some 180 degree mandrel bends then went down to the local muffler shop and got a couple sticks of 2.5" aluminized tubing and welded it all up in my driveway. It is the tightest exhaust I've seen, mandrel bent, doesn't rub, but sits about 1/4" off the diff in the rear. Actually, it did rub at first. I had to notch the early transmission crossmember to clear it. I paid less than $150 for the header back (probably 10 years ago now, probably could still build it again for under $200 I'm guessing).

[ConchZ]

The 240Z has been touted as the "next big collector car" for close to 20 years that I've been watching. It never quite gets there. And if it hasn't made it by now, it may never happen. The people who should be buying, restoring and modifying these cars are those who remember them when they were new. At 52, I'm at the young end of the group. If the older boomers haven't caught the 240Z bug by now, it's not going to happen, not in a big way.

I don't know, I just turned 40, and am bringing an old Z back to very good driver condition, because I always liked them as a kid. The people who get excited when they see it are usually a bit older, but not by much. The real problem is that few people younger than me have an interest in restoring ANY cars. They grew up without learning how to work on cars, and seem to think of cars as appliances.

[sblake01]

I notice of late that many of the newest members are younger, like 23 or less. They seem to come in with some bad notions, i.e. the thread about L28 pistons or talking about puting V8s or SR20DETs in these cars. Doesn't give me a good feeling about the future of the Datsun hobby.

[jmortensen]

I notice of late that many of the newest members are younger, like 23 or less. They seem to come in with some bad notions, i.e. the thread about L28 pistons or talking about puting V8s or SR20DETs in these cars. Doesn't give me a good feeling about the future of the Datsun hobby.

What is the goal of the Datsun hobby? If the goal is to have a fun to drive car, there is no reason why V8's or SR20DET's or 1JZ's shouldn't be used. They certainly won't make these cars less fun to drive. I can't wait to get my all aluminum 5.3L V8 installed. Trying for a total weight of ~2250 lbs... Should haul arse!

By the way, nice choice--I liked that GTO the first time I saw it and the later ones with the LS2 are even better. I wonder how hard it will be to find parts for it 10 years down the line though... are they directly compatible with the Holden stuff in AU?

[Inf]

I notice of late that many of the newest members are younger, like 23 or less. They seem to come in with some bad notions, i.e. the thread about L28 pistons or talking about puting V8s or SR20DETs in these cars. Doesn't give me a good feeling about the future of the Datsun hobby.

There will always be purists, and there will always be those that just want to do whatever. There are whole sites (i.e. hybridz) dedicated to what many of us would consider a bastardization of a classic car.

To each their own, I suppose. If that's how things end up going, it will be unfortunate because the very limited number of purists are certainly not enough to maintain an aftermarket for anything really.

FWIW there are plenty of people who are in the 30-50 year old age range who are into S30 engine swaps, and there are more than a few people in their 20s (myself, for instance) who are interested in keeping their car as original as they can reasonably manage.

I know I'll probably be doing the same thing, shaking my finger at young whippersnappers who do this, that, and the other thing that I will disapprove of in my later years, but hopefully I can remember that no generation or group is completely homogeneous.

[sblake01]

What is the goal of the Datsun hobby? If the goal is to have a fun to drive car, there is no reason why V8's or SR20DET's or 1JZ's shouldn't be used. They certainly won't make these cars less fun to drive. I can't wait to get my all aluminum 5.3L V8 installed. Trying for a total weight of ~2250 lbs... Should haul arse!

By the way, nice choice--I liked that GTO the first time I saw it and the later ones with the LS2 are even better. I wonder how hard it will be to find parts for it 10 years down the line though... are they directly compatible with the Holden stuff in AU?

I'm no puritst by any means. All I meant is that in the future, 'hybrid' will likely become more prominent than 'original' which is pretty much the point of Andrew's second paragraph. As far as the GTO, it's pretty much the same as the Holden CV8 (Vauxhall Monaro in the United Kingdom). Parts are plentiful here through GM even though the Pontiac name itself will dissapear in 2010. I've done a lot of research on this as this will be the last car I ever buy. I've heard others in my family say that but I guess I'm old enough now to state that as my intention. Even if parts become harder to find 10 years hence, I imagine it would still be easier than hunting down 30 year old Datsun stuff. Edited May 14, 2009 by sblake01

[ta240]

I think the point of the original post is more of the exhaust system being the canary in the parts supply mine for the Z. And it is falling off its perch.

The exhaust was just used as an example of another large manufacture stopping production on a Z item due to lack of demand. It isn't the first item nor the last. I for one like more choices rather than less. 20 years ago when I got my first Z I was so let down by the few and expensive parts choices. My coworkers would bring in their catalogs of parts for their old Chevys and parts would cost a quarter of what the Z parts cost and there were so many choices. They had all different quality and performance levels. The fact that so many of the same parts fit so many of the cars and that there were still so many cars out there made for great aftermarket support.

As stated in above posts that just isn't the case with Zs.

Thankfully MSA has been able to make a go of supplying parts and in some cases have even expanded their available options to help fill the ever growing void.

Congratulations on your exhaust building ability, however the monza system fit on my Z just fine, went on easily and was quite solid. For those without the equipment/skill/interest in doing their own exhaust it is nice to have more options rather than less.

I guess I could have taken a day off from work and spent it at a local exhaust shop having a custom one built or I could have driven 55 miles without any exhaust to go to a shop closer to work but those options had more downsides than up for me.

Even if some of the options are 'crap', I still say more options good, less options bad.

I guess I just don't see the problem. I think the reduction in ill fitting aftermarket exhaust systems is not terribly problematic. My guess is that those that don't build their own exhaust are going to the local muffler shop and having it done there. It doesn't mean that there aren't any Z's left, it means that people who need exhaust systems aren't buying the crap that gets sold from catalogs. Having seen most of them, I'm thoroughly unwhelmed.

DIY is still the best option on a cost/performance basis IMO. I bought a Super Turbo muffler from JC Whitney on sale for $25 along with some 180 degree mandrel bends then went down to the local muffler shop and got a couple sticks of 2.5" aluminized tubing and welded it all up in my driveway. It is the tightest exhaust I've seen, mandrel bent, doesn't rub, but sits about 1/4" off the diff in the rear. Actually, it did rub at first. I had to notch the early transmission crossmember to clear it. I paid less than $150 for the header back (probably 10 years ago now, probably could still build it again for under $200 I'm guessing).

[sblake01]

Actually, the perch is falling.........