HLS30-OOO13 Has Been Found!

[Zs-ondabrain]

I think what most of you "Questioners of the truth" are failing to realize is the Significance of the find. The find, being Zcar # HLS30-00013, as stated on many sites as well as Carls, is "THE FIRST 240Z SOLD TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC IN THE UNITED STATES"........

#1 thru 12 were used in testing, premiers and publications. They were NOT to be sold to the General public. 240Z #13 was to be the Very first unit, of the first Boat load, to be sold to John Q. Public. Period. This is what makes it such a Significant Find. We're not talking UK versions. We're not talking Europe, Asia, Australia or anywhere else in the friggin world. We're talking about the Very first, US Sold 240Z, to the public. Period.

We're not saying we don't appreciate the UK finds or significance. We're talking United States of America. That's it, That's all.

As for "What's it worth" that we'll hear for the next 20 friggin pages, it goes without saying that "Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder"..... The car is worth what the highest price paid says it's worth, and that's completely up to the future buyer and the present owner. And there's NO in between.

It does'nt take a Rocket Scientist to figure these things out. I was personally offered $18,000 for my 70' 240Z (HLS30-08077) which has no more historical significance than any other Z above the #500 vin mark. The fact was that the person who offered the $18K LOVED Everything that I had done to the car and wanted it as I HAD MADE IT!!!

All the above will either be agreed with or Scoughed at. I don't care either way. As facts are facts and opinions are opinions, to each his own.

Dave

Edited August 14, 2009 by Zs-ondabrain

[AndysPlit]

I think what most of you "Questioners of the truth" are failing to realize is the Significance of the find. The find, being Zcar # HLS30-00013, as stated on many sites as well as Carls, is "THE FIRST 240Z SOLD TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC IN THE UNITED STATES"........

#1 thru 12 were used in testing, premiers and publications. They were NOT to be sold to the General public. 240Z #13 was to be the Very first unit, of the first Boat load, to be sold to John Q. Public. Period. This is what makes it such a Significant Find. We're not talking UK versions. We're not talking Europe, Asia, Australia or anywhere else in the friggin world. We're talking about the Very first, US Sold 240Z, to the public. Period.

We're not saying we don't appreciate the UK finds or significance. We're talking United States of America. That's it, That's all.

As for "What's it worth" that we'll hear for the next 20 friggin pages, it goes without saying that "Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder"..... The car is worth what the highest price paid says it's worth, and that's completely up to the future buyer and the present owner. And there's NO in between.

It does'nt take a Rocket Scientist to figure these things out. I was personally offered $18,000 for my 70' 240Z (HLS30-08077) which has no more historical significance than any other Z above the #500 vin mark. The fact was that the person who offered the $18K LOVED Everything that I had done to the car and wanted it as I HAD MADE IT!!!

All the above will either be agreed with or Scoughed at. I don't care either way. As facts are facts and opinions are opinions, to each his own.

Dave

AMEN! Took the words right out of my mouth!

[26th-Z]

To be exact; "rescued from a Garner, NC salvage yard in the mid 70's, put back in running condition, and sold to a collector after 2 years".

The VIN numbers were 5 digits - yes. For example, the exact VIN for Her Majesty the 26th is HLS30U-00026

[Mr Camouflage]

did the low vin # z's have a five digit serial number, because most of the z's i have seen have a six digits, so wouldnt the serial number look like HLS30-000013?

Yes they do have 5 digit vins.

Surely this is just the earliest HLS30 vin sold, not necessarily the first 240Z sold. They weren't sold in Vin order now were they? What if the first person didn't like the color of #13 and bought number #14 instead? What if you were 5th in the queue? Did you have to have number #18?

[HS30-H]

I think what most of you "Questioners of the truth" are failing to realize is the Significance of the find. The find, being Zcar # HLS30-00013, as stated on many sites as well as Carls, is "THE FIRST 240Z SOLD TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC IN THE UNITED STATES"........

With respect, this here "questioner of the truth" ( ) is saying that this is exactly what is not being said.

And as I've pointed out, the fellow breaking the 'news' on the ctzcc.com thread asserts that 'HLS30-00016' was "...the first Z car sold to the public", so is already contradicting himself at the same time as he's ignoring - or oblivious to - the fact that such a claim is unlikely to be true. Basically - to use the local vernacular that I grew up with - the whole thing is a load of old bollocks, isn't it?

We're not talking UK versions. We're not talking Europe, Asia, Australia or anywhere else in the friggin world. We're talking about the Very first, US Sold 240Z, to the public. Period.

Speaking as a resident of the part of "the friggin world" that isn't the USA, I'd like to offer my congratulations. I now look forward to the forlorn hope that some of this breaking news might get put into reasonable perspective, or written up on a site where the contents of the story can be analysed and critiqued by a peer group with the credentials to make sense of it all without bringing the ugly spectre of $ value into the equation, and without ignoring the fact that other markets existed and were just as valid. Dream on, I guess.

We're not saying we don't appreciate the UK finds or significance. We're talking United States of America. That's it, That's all.

The UK? That's aimed at me I suppose. Ironically I'm not thinking of the UK, I'm actually thinking of Japan, that little country that made these things, remember?

More to the point in this case, I think you might be forgetting your fellow north American market sector, Canada? Since when was the north American market 'HLS30' prefixed production aimed solely and exclusively at the USA?

[Unkle]

Alan , I can hear you beat your head against the wall from here !

When dealing with our Southern neighbours , it's easy to forget that

the ''world '' as they know it begins and ends inside the borders of

the great USA . And why try ? This INTERNET site is composed by

mostly U.S. members , and that aspect alone gives them rights to

think alone with one voice.... Oh , only friendly ribbing here , no need

to send Stealth fighters yet . My most memorable request yet comes

from a nice Texan , '' Does the Canadian flag come in any other colors ? ''

As heard on B.C. Ferries , summer 1986 . :classic:

[Carl Beck]

'' Does the Canadian flag come in any other colors ? ''

As heard on B.C. Ferries , summer 1986 . :classic:

Come to think of it - that might be a legitimate question in some peoples minds.

http://connectionsuisse.vox.com/library/audio/6a00c225285da5604a00c2252aff0e8e1d.html

and

http://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/choose-quebec/society-values/french-language/index.html

just saying....WTF???

Edited August 14, 2009 by Carl Beck

[Unkle]

Heh heh , here's a few more : ''What time do they turn on the Northern Lights ? "

" Where's the big black fish ? " meaning orca .

" Can I spend my money here ? " while underway .

" This is Washington Island , right ? " meaning Vancouver Island .

[doradox]

Speaking as a resident of the part of "the friggin world" that isn't the USA, I'd like to offer my congratulations. I now look forward to the forlorn hope that some of this breaking news might get put into reasonable perspective, or written up on a site where the contents of the story can be analysed and critiqued by a peer group with the credentials to make sense of it all without bringing the ugly spectre of $ value into the equation, and without ignoring the fact that other markets existed and were just as valid. Dream on, I guess.

The UK? That's aimed at me I suppose. Ironically I'm not thinking of the UK, I'm actually thinking of Japan, that little country that made these things, remember?

More to the point in this case, I think you might be forgetting your fellow north American market sector, Canada? Since when was the north American market 'HLS30' prefixed production aimed solely and exclusively at the USA?

240z Production by market ( I didn't double check my math but the order of magnitude should be correct)

USA

148,115

Canada

11,198

Australia

2358

Great Britain

1929

Total production thru '73 (S30 and S130)

192549

http://www2.zhome.com:81/History/Zproduction.html

Nothing personal but...

With the USA receiving 75% of the total produced you'll have to excuse us for not thinking that markets that received 1.5% or less of the total as being "just as valid".

One could argue the point that the 240Z would not have existed at all if not for Datsun's burning desire make it big in the US market. I can be pretty sure they weren't overly excited at the prospect of selling a whopping 1929 cars over 3 years.

That's perspective.

Steve

[Unkle]

Steve your numbers don't lie , it's just the nose in the air attitude the world sees with not only this tiny thread , but many things around the world the U.S. seems to make their ''own'' by automatic default ( ALWAYS implying size matters , go big or go home etc.)

Instead of quiet understanding of wealth and strength , we see chest pounding and self brought accolades . By the way , China has won that quiet trade war years ago . If they could , they would cash in on the U.S. buck they already own and sink us all . By jove, you sank my battleship !

Let's keep this friendly . We all live on planet earth , you just have to look around past the fence a bit !

[HS30-H]

240z Production by market ( I didn't double check my math but the order of magnitude should be correct)

USA

148,115

Canada

11,198

Australia

2358

Great Britain

1929

Total production thru '73 (S30 and S130)

192549

http://www2.zhome.com:81/History/Zproduction.html

Nothing personal but...

With the USA receiving 75% of the total produced you'll have to excuse us for not thinking that markets that received 1.5% or less of the total as being "just as valid".

One could argue the point that the 240Z would not have existed at all if not for Datsun's burning desire make it big in the US market. I can be pretty sure they weren't overly excited at the prospect of selling a whopping 1929 cars over 3 years.

That's perspective.

Steve

Steve, with respect...

Perspective? Looks like the view down the old 'Beck-O-Vision' telescope to me....

Unfortunately, you have fallen into the same trap as so many others. You seem to believe that these production and sales figures - viewed in retrospect - tell us something about the concept, design, styling, engineering and pre-production processes of the S30-series Z range. That's right, a range of models and variants intended for several different markets. The validity is right there. You don't seem to mention the S30 or PS30 variants ( no surprise there then ) and you certainly don't address the plain fact that the term "240Z" is almost meaningless in the context of the BIG story unless you state which "240Z" model you are talking about. Does it include my UK-market 240Zs, but not my Fairlady 240ZGs? I don't see any figures for the Japanese market in the above list ( a market which received models with the 'HS30' prefix, and which were called '240Z' too.... ) so I think I could be forgiven for calling it inaccurate and meaningless garbage, at the very least.

Of course, we've been here so very many times before on this forum. As Unkle says, I'm beating my head against a metaphorical brick wall in trying to get people like you to understand that the men who designed and engineered these cars ( as opposed to the somewhat larger than life figures who got their names attached to them ) were working on projects intended for more than one market, and would have told you in early 1969 that they were just about to release a family of new sports / GT cars onto the world stage, rather than just one single model into one single market. Maybe you should pay a little more attention to what they said about it, rather than simply quoting more USA-centric twaddle on a Japanese car from zhome.com?

Production figures? How about we look at those for the E-type Jaguar, the Porsche 356 and 911, or even those shitty little Triumph and MG sports cars that some "Datsun" fans like to poke fun at? How about VW's Type 1, 2 and 3? HUGE sales in the USA for all, but "designed for" the USA? I don't think so. How about you look at the sales figures for the little Datsun sedans and pickup trucks that were selling alongside those "Zee cars" in the USA showrooms? They were eclipsing HLS30 sales, but were they too "American cars, made in Japan"...? The answer of course is that, no, they were not. Nor were they ever expected to be.

And now that the somewhat vulgar topic of monetary value has reared its head, perhaps you might like to ponder on which car out of the following will be most valuable, considering its rarity: S30-00013, PS30-00013, HS30-00013 or HLS30-00013...? The people telling you that these early HLS30s are sure-fire 'investments' are also - somewhat paradoxically - boasting that they are the commonest of the brood, and with the highest survival rate. WTF indeed.

Drifting off topic we most certainly are, so to bring it back to the subject of HLS30-00013 ( and HLS30-00016 ) can you answer any of my questions in this thread? Can you fill me in on the details of the original sale of HLS30-00016 ( in October 1969 ), or how it has been determined that HLS30-00013 was "...the first Z sold"....?

I must say though, that its nice to have a debate that we can all get our teeth into again......

Cheers,

Alan T.

Edited August 15, 2009 by HS30-H
left out a couple of important Ls......

[HS30-H]

I hope you don't mind me singling out this particular quote for some extra attention?

One could argue the point that the 240Z would not have existed at all if not for Datsun's burning desire make it big in the US market. I can be pretty sure they weren't overly excited at the prospect of selling a whopping 1929 cars over 3 years.

First of all, I think you are - stop me if you've heard this one before - falling into the same old trap as many others. You don't seem to have any concept of how seriously a company like Nissan ( amongst its sworn enemies in the Japanese market ) took its own image and sense of self worth both then - in 1969 - and now. There's a very strong case to put that Nissan and its home rivals in that period ( and still so today ) took their own domestic market even more seriously than it took any single export market, but outsiders very rarely recognise it. Who told you that the "240Z" - or a car like it with perhaps a different name - would not have existed but for the USA market? On the contrary, it is almost unthinkable that Nissan would not have a model, and even several variants of a current model, in that sector in that period, regardless of any export business considerations. Basically, if you don't get this then you don't get Japan.

Thanks for the extra barb of the '1929' cars ( itself an inaccurate figure ) for the UK market. It's flattering of you to aim at me specifically, but the UK market is not some silly pseudo patriotic obsession of mine I'm afraid. I tend to have my eye on the tens of thousands of JAPANESE market cars that the "production list" you quoted above seems to be blind to.

Yes of course, Nissan would not have made a huge amount of money out of those UK market cars - but I can assure you they did hope to sell a few more than that. Unlike you, they took the UK market seriously and made a special effort to tailor the car to the needs of a somewhat unfavourable marketing position ( tariff quotas and high import duties to name just two ). They made their presence felt and stepped up their image. It wasn't all about making money.

And just a little reminder that "Datsun" never had any "burning desire" in relation to these cars, because "Datsun" was just a badge that was placed on some of them. The company was Nissan, of course.

Cheers,

Alan T.