HLS30-OOO13 Has Been Found!

[HS30-H]

And the reply I made to Frank T's post, here: http://forums.ctzcc.com/viewtopic.php?t=4114&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

My two cents ~ as a survivor of the 1960s and 70s, who had his ear very close to the ground (an American slang term meaning "paying attention") in matters of sports cars during those decades, I will confirm several of Carl's points.

THANK YOU Frank,

For the record, I think you might find that the expression 'having your ear close to the ground' is not necessarily a slang term of solely "American" origin.....

From having been stationed in Japan and Okinawa seven times during that period, I can confirm the exchange rate is dead-accurate: 360 Yen to a US dollar for many consecutive years;

That exchange rate was fixed by the Bretton Woods System in 1949, and by the late 1960s it was starting to cause problems in Japan because it effectively undervalued the Yen. Japan had changed a lot since 1949, and by 1970/71 Japan's imports ( including most of the raw materials that 'our' cars were made from ) were costing Japanese industry too much, and its exports were earning less than they should. On the path to a floating exchange rate system, the Yen bounced around in value a fair bit. The $US was devalued in mid 1971 and the Smithsonian Agreement set the $/JPY exchange rate at 308 Yen. This did not last long, and market forces brought the agreement to be abandoned. By early 1973 the $US was buying just 270 Yen. For the rest of the decade it was averaging around 295 Yen.

This is not quite the situation yourself and Carl are portraying, is it? You must understand that all of this had deep implications on the manufacturing process behind 'our' cars, let alone the amount of revenue they brought in sales. So once again we see that the situation was a lot more complex than a few - unquestioned - paragraphs can convey, and that if you look a little deeper into the Japanese side of the story ( of a Japanese car ), you can get a much better handle on the big picture.

I can also imagine some frustrated buyers, unable to obtain a 240Z in their native country, visiting the USA for the express purpose of buying one here and shipping it home.

Furthermore, during the 1960s, '70s and '80s, the U.S. Serviceman was stationed at permanent bases in 138 of the world's countries. We could go to our Post Exchange and order any automobile we desired, and have it delivered to us there. As popular as the Z car was among Americans, I have no doubt some of them were shipped overseas to our men abroad. Some probably got left there when the Yank returned home.

I'm sorry Frank, I'm not really seeing where you are going with this. My point - made to Carl - was that while he claimed to have been looking for 500-and-something 1969 production HLS30s, there is no 'given' that these would all have been north American market models, or that they had all been sent outside Japan in the first place. It might seem a small point to some, but I think it is very relevant when there is so much talk about these 'first 500' or so Export cars and so much time and discussion is spent on trying to find the missing pieces of the jigsaw. See below for more on this point:

AND, the "issue" about Z cars being tested in the Alps or the Gobi or the Himalayas or the Moon or anywhere else is completely understandable but equally unimportant ~ Datsun tested the very first cars in many locations, but then returned them to the factory and tore them down to study parts durability, etc. None of them was intended for SALE in those locations; they were only there for testing and were ALL returned to the factory ~ which is why you, Alan, will NEVER provide us with a confirmed VIN number for any of the cars you repeatedly insist were reported at those locations. The same cars, in fact, might have visited several countries and been tested under many conditions before being retuned to Datsun for disassembly and study. WHY ARE WE EVEN DISCUSSING THEM? THEY WERE "TEST CARS", NOT PRODUCTION SALES CARS.

"Unimportant"?

Frank, the whole point is that the cars I'm talking about were given series production prefixes and body serial numbers. They are important pieces of the jigsaw puzzle, and their very existence - even if we do not know their specific serial numbers - affects the story, and the surrounding history, of all the others. Yes, it even affects the way that 'HLS30-00013' fits into that story....

..... which is why you, Alan, will NEVER provide us with a confirmed VIN number for any of the cars you repeatedly insist were reported at those locations.

You're perhaps revealing a little too much vehemence in your post than the point deserves, don't you think?

You might like to reflect on the fact that we are gradually finding out more and more about these cars and the stories that surround them. If it wasn't for 'Kats' Endo, much of the data from Nissan Shatai we have been discussing ( which helps to put 'HLS30-00013' into context too ) would not have been available for us to chew the fat over. Never say never. It was a relatively short time ago in the scheme of things that Carl was insisting than NO export spec HS30 had been built in 1969, and not much longer ago than that he was under the impression that ALL the early S30-series bodies, regardless of prefix, shared a body serial number sequence. We are all learning as we go along, aren't we Frank?

As for me supplying 'VIN' numbers for cars that are known to have been in certain locations at certain times, again I'd say 'Never Say Never'. Don't bet against data turning up. I recently got hold of some 'Katashiki' data for some competition cars that I knew existed, and had been chasing for years. The key point was in knowing that they existed in the first place, where they were at a certain time, and what they were doing there. Would you advocate that we ignore cars that might have had 'interesting' prefixes and low body serial numbers just because you seem to have a personal dislike of the person providing the sighting? That would appear to be an inefficient method of acquiring information.......

A point we seem to be ignoring is the LHD/RHD issue.

"HLS30" designates LEFT HAND DRIVE...

Yes, but 'HLS30' does not solely designate north American market - does it?

HLS30-00013 was the FIRST 240Z off the assembly line, designed for the American market ~ which was the admitted TARGET for the Z car in the first place.

Er, two things here Frank: First of all, HLS30-00013 was certainly not the "FIRST 240Z off the assembly line". It may well have turned out to be the first car sold to a customer in the USA ( remember that another car was claiming that particular accolade in the beginning of this thread? ) but I don't believe this was the pre-determined plan when it rolled off the production line in Japan, was it? There appear to be cars with lower numeric serial numbers that were originally planned to be sold before it.

Secondly, the "Z car" was not designed solely for the American market, as I think I have made quite clear. I think you're thinking of the HLS30-U model........

You can argue trivial "facts" about insignificant numbers of foreign Z cars all you want, Alan.

I apologise for my trivial "facts" ( ), but thanks very much for writing the brilliant "foreign Z cars" quote, which I think puts this whole thing in perfect ( warped ) perspective. I feel obliged to point out that all of these cars are in fact Japanese, even if it should be rather obvious to all of us.

And while I still have my adrenalin flowing, I will address the absurd implication that the Z was designed for anything BUT the American market. Mr Katayama himself changed the name of the car BECAUSE he recognized that no car called a "FAIRLADY" would ever sell well in America. He was attuned to the homophibic American market tastes and fully understood how such a name would fare in the land of John Wayne, Charlton Heston and Ronald Reagan. Had he been concerned in the LEAST with any other market in the world, he would NOT have demanded the name be changed to "Z". He could have left it with its original sissy name and targeted some other market.

Posting whilst you have a little bit too much adrenalin flowing is probably not such a good idea. Especially if this is the kind of stuff that results:

I will address the absurd implication that the Z was designed for anything BUT the American market

...He was attuned to the homophibic American market tastes...

Oh dear!

Had he been concerned in the LEAST with any other market in the world, he would NOT have demanded the name be changed to "Z"

Er, Frank - even the S30-series 'Fairlady' was a 'Z'. I think you're getting a little bit mixed up. Too much adrenalin, maybe?

He could have left it with its original sissy name and targeted some other market.

"Sissy" ::

I think you're giving that little bit of Katayama lore another airing, whilst seeming oblivious that this was really just a sideshow dating from the SP/SR Roadster days. I think you'll find that one of the main thing Katayama didn't like about the 'Fairlady' name was that he didn't like the guy who came up with it ( that ring a bell for you at all? ). Regardless, when the S30-series Z range made its debut at the Tokyo Auto Show in October 1969, the sole HLS30 on the Nissan stand was already wearing its 'Datsun' and '240Z' emblems, whilst also wearing a plaque on its rear license plate position that read "Fairlady Z - Export version".

Matsuo san has related just how late in the day the 'Datsun' and '240Z' script emblems were prototyped and put into production, whilst the 'Fairlady Z' and 'Nissan' emblems had been finalised much earlier. If Katayama was in such strong control of the Z's concept, design, engineering and destiny then you might imagine that he'd have a little bit more control - and a little earlier in the process - than this illustrates.

Of course, the answer is that he wasn't. I couldn't care less if you , or "homophibic" ( sic ) America think that the 'Fairlady' name is "sissy", and it certainly didn't matter in Japan. For the record, I think 'Z' was a good name, but I don't care for 'Fairlady' one bit. Not because I think it's "sissy" ( is it really? ) but more because I think it's a link to the SP/SR series that they needed to break away from. One thing that this difference in naming for different markets did achieve was to draw an arbitrary line through domestic and export models that didn't really - in terms of concept, design engineering and production - actually exist. It confuses the issues, and makes it easier for people to justify their intentional 'them and us' stance. It's a Maguffin.

The plain fact is that all the S30-series Z range, as seen at launch in 1969, had been conceived, designed, engineered and prototyped at pretty much the same time. You could point out that the majority of prototypes and mockups were RHD, and that much of the layout of the design displayed a clear bias and design concession towards the car's Japanese roots, but that should be obvious when we are talking about a Japanese car of that period.

What it all boils down to - and the reason I'm posting on this thread - is that we should remember that these are all Japanese cars, that the vast majority of the players in the story were Japanese, and that they were designing a range of variants that were all part of the core design. This is a message of democracy and inclusiveness, not elitism, nationalism or bragging rights.

I'm off to play with my "foreign Z". It knows what I'm talking about, I think.

Regards,

Alan T.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Again, if anyone can see anything hugely insulting or objectional in there ( surely not? ) then I'd appreciate having it pointed out to me. I don't expect Frank T to sign up here, but anyway.....

I like the "foreign Z" quote ( ). Sometimes great comedy lines can be delivered quite unintentionally, I think.

Cheers,

Alan T.

[conedodger]

So... What news of this important early Z? You remember... It was the subject of this thread.

[five&dime]

I have almost forgotten what this original thread is about lolz

[26th-Z]

I was also the victim of thread deletion and lost the desire to contribute to the conversation on ctzcc. The thread is rife with incorrect information, opinion, and favors a discussion that is simply naive and short sighted. Fine. Let them believe what they want to. They obviously don't have a clue. I'm really tired of it all. Alan, I feel for you.

As far as I can determine, 13th was totaled when it mounted a telephone pole and ended up in a junk yard before being rescued and reconstructed with a new radiator cross member. Nothing has been said about frame rail damage, but the bonnet is not an early one; obviously replaced in spite of what was said on ctzcc. I also read that the head had been replaced at one point. My recomendation is go to the site for the pictures and ignore the conversation for any historical value.

[HS30-H]

So... What news of this important early Z? You remember... It was the subject of this thread.

I have almost forgotten what this original thread is about lolz

This was the first post on this thread:

I figured lots of you guys here would like to see and read this thread for yourselves. The full story has not been told yet but I am sure it will be within a week or so....... found in CT!

Happy reading:

http://forums.ctzcc.com/viewtopic.php?t=4114

If you want to find out what's happening with HLS30-00013 ( and what the 'experts' are telling everybody it is worth, even though it isn't for sale ), just click on the link to the ctzcc.com thread.

Alan T.

[geezer]

So... What news of this important early Z? You remember... It was the subject of this thread.

This, I suspect reflects the feelings of many of us. I'm just as guilty as anyone when it comes to drifting off topic, but this ongoing difference of opinion really deserves it's own thread instead of the much too frequent invasion of other threads. That I believe was part of Frank T's reasoning, regardless of who thinks the deleting of posts was justified or not. This argument will likely never be resolved to everyones satifaction, but it merits discussion and is interesting to me. I have learned much sitting ringside from both viewpoints. Look up tenacious in the dictionary. A word of many meanings/applications that can be used to describe the main speakers in this debate.

Alan, you asked; "Again, if anyone can see anything hugely insulting or objectional in there ( surely not? ) then I'd appreciate having it pointed out to me."

All I see objectionable is the deviation off topic and we have to admire Frank T for his patience, as long as it heldout. He is just steering his ship away from rough waters. I also admire your steadfast commitment to the "whole story" and I enjoy learning from your posts, but there will always be instances like this where you will encounter some that don't really see the importance of what you are laying down.

[HS30-H]

I was also the victim of thread deletion and lost the desire to contribute to the conversation on ctzcc. The thread is rife with incorrect information, opinion, and favors a discussion that is simply naive and short sighted. Fine. Let them believe what they want to. They obviously don't have a clue. I'm really tired of it all. Alan, I feel for you.

Thanks Chris, that means a lot to me. Much appreciated.

Alan T.

[HS30-H]

Alan, you asked; "Again, if anyone can see anything hugely insulting or objectional in there ( surely not? ) then I'd appreciate having it pointed out to me."

All I see objectionable is the deviation off topic and we have to admire Frank T for his patience, as long as it heldout. He is just steering his ship away from rough waters. I also admire your steadfast commitment to the "whole story" and I enjoy learning from your posts, but there will always be instances like this where you will encounter some that don't really see the importance of what you are laying down.

Thanks Ron, I was hoping you would comment.

I agree that the thread drifted off topic, but they always do, don't they? I'm afraid that some of the initial claims being made ( look at that codswallop about HLS30-00016 for example ) did not stand up to scrutiny, and from then on the inevitable debate was always going to happen.

You will - I hope - have noted that I was not the only one taking the thread 'off topic' ( even though I believe what we were discussing was putting HLS30-00013 in perspective ) but that the only complete posts that have been deleted were mine ( and Chris's ), whilst Frank T has chosen to add his choice comments about me whilst misrepresenting the chain of events. I think forum moderators need to be seen as fair and even handed, and the fact that he was part of the 'problem' he perceived - as well as his obvious courting of Carl Beck - was never going to allow him to act as a moderator should.

Now the thread at ctzcc.com - as Chris has pointed out - contains some really crock data, leftfield opinion presented as solid fact, and no toleration of it being debated let alone corrected. It will now go be preserved as reference material for other unknowing souls to believe in good faith, and the whole thing starts over again like a Typhoid infected water source. That's how we got to this "foreign Z" and "American Car, Made In Japan" nonsense in the first place.

Sorry for the thread diversions.....

Cheers,

Alan T.

[Mike B]

I was also the victim of thread deletion and lost the desire to contribute to the conversation on ctzcc. The thread is rife with incorrect information, opinion, and favors a discussion that is simply naive and short sighted. Fine. Let them believe what they want to. They obviously don't have a clue. I'm really tired of it all. Alan, I feel for you.

As far as I can determine, 13th was totaled when it mounted a telephone pole and ended up in a junk yard before being rescued and reconstructed with a new radiator cross member. Nothing has been said about frame rail damage, but the bonnet is not an early one; obviously replaced in spite of what was said on ctzcc. I also read that the head had been replaced at one point. My recomendation is go to the site for the pictures and ignore the conversation for any historical value.

I'm going to have to agree with Chris and Alan on this one. What started out on the CTZCC site as a thread related to finding an early car has morphed into a one sided conversation between a group of like minded individuals that don't want to hear anything that doesn't fit into their narrow views. It is really disappointing to me that Frank T (supposedly a 'Moderator') makes comments like the ones Alan highlighted above and then posts the following:

"An extensive [and informative] response has been deleted from this space, since it was worded in caustic and abrasive manner, which violates the respectful nature of this Website. ...Please maintain common courtesy in all forums of this website)."

"Personal attacks and insults will not be permitted on this Club's website."

You can make the case that this thread has gotten off topic, but don't almost all threads deviate somewhat? I think it all relates to the discussion of the relative significance of HLS30-00013 and I was glad to at least be able to read Alan's reply to the CTZCC comments, since they were censored over there. I think Chris nailed it with this comment "My recomendation is go to the (CTZCC) site for the pictures and ignore the conversation for any historical value."

-Mike

[26th-Z]

My post was not deleted because I was off topic. I responded to incorrect information, presented my evidence, and was told that I couldn't possibly be correct because it didn't agree with what their guru was saying.

The stripped down HLS30 came to America without carpeting, rear window defroster, parking lights, headlight covers, 5-speed transmission, aerodynamic devices, 8-track player, road emergency kit to name but a few items standard on the Fairlady ZL. Carpeting was originally dealer installed (thank you MikeB for that info) even though it is listed on the bill of sale.

Now think about this...the S20 engine makes approximately the same horse power as the L24. Why wasn't it used for the export models? Well... it doesn't meet emission standards and offer the same HP as the L24 which does. So why wasn't the L24 used for racing? Because of the 2 liter classification. Alan my have some comments on this, but the fact that the various engines WERE used and the chassis designed to accomodate all three engines does NOT support the idea that the 240Z was designed specifically for American consumption. Look at this in terms of what an American can buy at the Nissan dealer today. Several different versions of various trim and performance packages on the basic model - track version, touring version, etc.

[IBZINYA]

WOW! Would you folks mind if I publish this..... it makes for some terrific reading. I dont need to borrow my wifes Cosmo for drama any more. Man I wish I could have photocopied the page from an English book of "super" sports cars where the text actually gave credit for the design of the Z to A. Ghortz or whatever you call him. Man I am sure it too could have rang up a few notches on the richter scale... but alas fro now I will continue to re-read this over and over for no other reason than it's entertainment value. Thanks folks

[Zs-ondabrain]

WOW! Would you folks mind if I publish this..... it makes for some terrific reading. I dont need to borrow my wifes Cosmo for drama any more. Man I wish I could have photocopied the page from an English book of "super" sports cars where the text actually gave credit for the design of the Z to A. Ghortz or whatever you call him. Man I am sure it too could have rang up a few notches on the richter scale... but alas fro now I will continue to re-read this over and over for no other reason than it's entertainment value. Thanks folks

See there? Now I know you're bored.... You need to walk away from the Hospital Magazines for a while there Kirk!!

How are things with your Daughter? Good I hope.

Dave