HLS30-OOO13 Has Been Found!

[Mike B]

Madonna Mia,

If I knew I was going to start a war, or re-ignite the Revolutionary

War (Hi, Alan), I would have left the stupid car in the barn gathering

dust and cobwebs for another 25 or 30 years!!!!!!!!!!!

The L-24 engine is original, but the cylinder head has been replaced.

If I had owned it then, I would have seen if I could have got the

original head planed down even if it had raised the compression ratio

from 9.0 to 9.5 or so, in order to save it. But that was before my time......

I am the third owner of the car, since 8/30/76.

You can see a bazillion pictures of both our '69's by going to the Ct Z Car Club site (CTZCC.com). Get to the forum which has Upcoming Events, then go to the 2nd Annual CTZCC Car Show thread. Maybe 50 entries in, there is a link that will get you to a huge photo album. The #13 car is the butterscotch one; the #171 car is the British Racing Green.

The car that nobody raises a big fuss about is the #171 car, which has

28,700 original miles and is totally original including the belts, hoses,

and tires. I know that is true mileage because I knew the original

owner and bought it from her with 26,000 miles on it on 8/24/73.

Hope I haven't gotten into the middle of a crossfire, I'm already a

Purple Heart veteran!! But I will try to answer your questions as

accurately and honestly as I can, that is if everybody doesn't kill one

another first!!

All Z Best,.............Ranger Rick

Hey Rick,

Glad to see that you are now over at this site on a regular basis. There is lots of great information in the archives here and we all continue to learn new things about these cars. I think the thing about HLS30-00013 (#13) that got some of us going was it being held out by some as a kind of holly grail, ignoring the fact there are also other significant S30 model cars in the US and other markets around the world too. The one sided censorship at the CTZCC site didn't help matters any.

HLS30-00171 (#171) looks like its in really good shape. However, the tires are not original (they should be Bridgestone Superspeed Radial-20's). I have attached a picture of the original spare from my HLS30-00032. The heater control panel looks like it was also replaced at some point. It should be painted grey to match the grey plastic on the map light and radio face plate. Do either of your 1969 production cars have the original rubber mats (rear deck, behind seats, and front floors)? Have you checked the emblems to see if they are the early solid chrome Z version and if any are solid cast? Here is a thread about the emblem differences if you are not familiar with them http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31488. Do the cars run? I read somewhere that #13 has been stored for most of the time you have owned it. It that also true for #171? Do you plan to get #13 running again and do any kind of restoration on it, or just leave it as is for now?

-Mike

[Kathy & Rick]

Hey Rick,

Glad to see that you are now over at this site on a regular basis. There is lots of great information in the archives here and we all continue to learn new things about these cars. I think the thing about HLS30-00013 (#13) that got some of us going was it being held out by some as a kind of holly grail, ignoring the fact there are also other significant S30 model cars in the US and other markets around the world too. The one sided censorship at the CTZCC site didn't help matters any.

HLS30-00171 (#171) looks like its in really good shape. However, the tires are not original (they should be Bridgestone Superspeed Radial-20's). I have attached a picture of the original spare from my HLS30-00032. The heater control panel looks like it was also replaced at some point. It should be painted grey to match the grey plastic on the map light and radio face plate. Do either of your 1969 production cars have the original rubber mats (rear deck, behind seats, and front floors)? Have you checked the emblems to see if they are the early solid chrome Z version and if any are solid cast? Here is a thread about the emblem differences if you are not familiar with them http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31488. Do the cars run? I read somewhere that #13 has been stored for most of the time you have owned it. It that also true for #171? Do you plan to get #13 running again and do any kind of restoration on it, or just leave it as is for now?

-Mike

Hi Mike, thanks for the reply!

As promised, I'll try to respond to all the questions or points you raised.

It's well documented that #13 was the first 240-Z available to the public. It's also recognized that #16 was the first 240-Z sold in the US, since it was sold in Houston while #13 was still taking its sea cruise to Virginia. It really doesn't matter to me and Kathy. I got

the car I really wanted, based on the fact that the factory parts

and service manuals said that the product line began w/VIN #HLS30-00013. And when my friend George w/the identical car (#418) told

me it was advertised, I just knew I had to have that specific car.

Jim Frederick and Carl Beck, down in FL, have become good friends over the past 2 months. They are also blessed to have early

VIN Z's, just as you and I are. I'm real glad that cars such as Jim's #16, #19, and others ended up in appreciative hands such as his, instead of in China as scrap iron, and I'm glad he can claim the first Z sold and the lowest SN of an L24 engine still running. I'm glad the other Z aficionado in FL, I think it is, got #26 and #27. I'm glad that Carl got and treasures #20 and others, and I'm glad that you got

#32 and the other jewels. Yeah, I'm MORE than really happy for ALL

of us. We are all so fortunate, BUT NOT NEARLY AS FORTUNATE AS THE CARS!!!!!

Now for the tires, the early Z's came in w/any of three different radials, all 175R14: Bridgestone, Toyo, or Fulda. My '70 came w/Bridgestones, the 171 car has Fuldas. (Don't forget, #171 only has 28700 original miles.) I knew the original owner and bought it from her when it had only 26000 miles. I don't know what the #13 car had

for original tires since I came along over six years and 90,000 miles later.

The heater control panel in the #171 is original, and is exactly like my '70, which I've had since it was just a little infant Z in a showroom. Both #13 and #171 have the original rubber mats hiding under the carpeting; you're possibly the first person I havefound who even knew about that! Good job! Not to be evasive, but I really haven't checked out the badges to see what type they are. That's a really good trivia item! But I can tell you that all badging on both cars is exactly as I received them, w/the exception of the hood emblem on #171 which is missing, but I have spares.

All three cars have been off the road for at least 25, maybe 30 years, due to lack of interest and activity in "things Z". Or so I thought.

I've probably received at least 20 diverse opinions, suggestions, and recommendations as to how to get them off the trailer and back on the road, which is what I would like to do. But at the moment I'm

leaning toward having Vinnie Bedini (former Bob Sharp Racing car builder and engine man) going through all the mechanicals to make sure I don't ruin anything, or even worse, wreck the cars (read: brakes, steering.....). If not Vinnie than maybe Bryan Little of

Datsun Z Garage (see CTZCC.com), we are so talent laden around here it's intimidating!!!!!

I keep having this thought go thru my mind, "IT'S ONLY ORIGINAL ONCE!!!" Not to mention the cost of restoration, though that

shouldn't be a lot considering the condition. Since #13 only has a couple of door dings on each side, and a rust spot so low on each front fender it's almost unnoticeable, I tend toward leaving everything else alone as long as she's mechanically sound, safe, and roadworthy. #171 needs nothing, but #06289 could use a driver side floor pan, floor support, and a paint job. To think of how that Candy Apple Red w/gold trim used to look back when...........

Mike, you really know your stuff and I respect that a lot. So, you

can also expect to be hearing a lot of questions and comments

from me. Deal??????????

All Z Best,............Kathy & Rick

Edited October 6, 2009 by Kathy & Rick

[26th-Z]

Gosh I hate to introduce myself this way, Ranger Rick, but your tires are not original. I haven't actually seen many pictures of #171. Would love to see more. What's your build date?

In the presence of Her Majesty the 26th, we refer to color by proper name as a matter of etiquette. You mentioned that #13 was butterscotch and #171 british racing green. You surely meant Safari Gold (920) and Racing Green (907). That would be proper terminology when speaking about such distinguished automobiles.

Anyhow, ya'll have fun. I just parted an early car. The floor was rusted all the way across the back of the rear bulkhead and the car broke in half. I managed to nab a pair of tool doors and the rubber tool strap. Got a pair of chrome button coat hooks and one clear grommet. But the find of the century was a pair of vented brake rotors. Woo-Hoo!! Sorry I had to leave the backing plates.

[26th-Z]

Ranger Rick,

Would you please document the Fulda brand tire for me please? If your claim is true, it is the first I have heard of it and would love to see something Nissan that indicates such. Anybody? Carl? Same goes for the claim about #16. I DO really love the story about why #16 sold before #13, but without the papers to proove it, well, it's a lovely story.

Many thanks,

Chris

[Mike B]

Now for the tires, the early Z's came in w/any of three different radials, all 175R14: Bridgestone, Toyo, or Fulda. My '70 came w/Bridgestones, the 171 car has Fuldas. (Don't forget, #171 only has 28700 original miles.) I knew the original owner and bought it from her when it had only 26000 miles. I don't know what the #13 car had

for original tires since I came along over six years and 90,000 miles later.

Rick, if you don't believe me about the tires, maybe you will believe Carl Beck http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/showpost.php?p=164453&postcount=14. I have never heard of Fulda tires.

The heater control panel in the #171 is original, and is exactly like my '70, which I've had since it was just a little infant Z in a showroom.

The very early cars came with grey heater control panels (HCP) to match the grey plastic map light, radio faceplate, and ashtray. The HCP in your #13 looks like it is original (grey), but the one in #171 is black and doesn't match the grey maplight and radio faceplate, so it must have been replaced at some point before you got it. The first two pictures below are your #171 and #13 cars (from the CTZCC site). The next two pictures are two of my cars #32 and #210. Notice the contrast of the black knobs with the grey panels, but not with the black one on #171. Carl or Jim F could confirm the grey HCPs for you also.

-Mike

[zed2]

I believe the specific name for the tires are;

Bridgestone RD-150

Toyo Z-1

FYI, my Jan 1970 production car was fitted with the Bridgestone RD-150 tire.

Both tires carry the designation "175HR14" and are a 80 series tire. It is difficult to locate an accurate replacement (although not in the Bridgestone or Toyo brand) in the size 175/80R14, however there are some still available.

Kathy & Rick,

What is the DOT code on the Fulda tires?

Keith

Edited October 6, 2009 by zed2

[Arne]

Fulda is and was a small subsidiary of Goodyear/Europe. Not common outside Europe in the '70s. I recall seeing them now and then on old Audi 100LS and such. I can't imagine that they would have ever been used as factory equipment on any Japanese cars. I replaced many original Z tires while working in the tire industry in the '70s, and all I remember was Bridgestone and Toyo. Yokohama was added in later years...

[Mike B]

FYI, my Jan 1970 production car was fitted with the Bridgestone RD-150 tire.

So, I take it you mean your spare tire is a Bridgestone RD-150, or do you still have all five original tires? What are the date codes on the steels wheels?

-Mike

[zed2]

Mike,

The spare is RD-150.

The prior owner replaced the four (4) driving tires prior to when I purchased the car in 1987. I would be very surprised that the Nissan would install one type of tire on the driving wheels and another type of tire on the spare.

The car is at the body shop being reassembled, so I do not have access to the date codes on the wheels.

Keith

Edited October 7, 2009 by zed2

[26th-Z]

For point of clarification - and I'm only talking about HLS30U / UN models, dates and VINs pertinent to this thread - correct tires are 175SR-14 and 175HR-14 by Bridgestone Japan and Toyo. Fulda, as Arne points out, is a German manufactured tire. I have literature that indicates an optional size for HLS30 and HS30U models - 6.45H-14.

[HS30-H]

It's well documented that #13 was the first 240-Z available to the public.

Really? Where exactly is it documented, and how?

It's also recognized that #16 was the first 240-Z sold in the US, since it was sold in Houston while #13 was still taking its sea cruise to Virginia.

It has been claimed that HLS30-00016 was actually 'sold' in October 1969. I've never seen any evidence that backs this claim up, and I'd really like to see some. Until then, I think it is safer to believe that HLS30-00016 was still in Japan in October 1969, and that any normal retail sales 'transaction' for an HLS30-U that is claimed as having taken place in the USA in October 1969 could not have been for any specific car.

I'm real glad that cars such as Jim's #16, #19, and others ended up in appreciative hands such as his, instead of in China as scrap iron, and I'm glad he can claim the first Z sold and the lowest SN of an L24 engine still running.

Anybody seriously claiming to have "...the first Z sold..." would hopefully realise that Zs were on sale in Japan before anywhere else in the world, and that it would be rather silly to ignore that fact when making some pretty grand claims.

As for "..the lowest SN of an L24 engine still running.", I wonder whether you realise ( or are in fact ignoring ) the fact that the L24 was not exclusive to the HLS30 and HS30 models, and that a couple of thousand of them were made before they started being installed in S30-series Zs. Again, it seems a tall claim with little or no evidence to corroborate it, and little or no acknowledgement of the worldwide perspective surrounding a Japanese commercial product.

You're definitely mistaken about the Fulda tyres ( tires ) too. Japan wasn't short of domestic-based tyre manufacturers with plenty of capacity and up to date products in 1969 ( Bridgstone, Dunlop Japan, Goodyear Japan, Nitto, Ohtsu, Toyo, Yokohama & ABC for example ), so why would it be expedient to import Fulda tyres from Europe and fit them on Nissan cars going for export?

Alan T.

[sblake01]

Like I said in the other thread, I get the feeling that Rick spews this stuff out just to get a reaction. No one could be wrong so often about so many things to include repeating things that have already been questioned and, in some cases, convincingly corrected. I read it more for the entertainment than to gain any kind of knowlege.