Who actually did S30's styling? We can make it clear

[Carl Beck]

Hi Kats:

It would seem that Mr. Matsuo's assessment of Mr. Tamura's contributions are far smaller than Mr. Tamura feels were true.

Mr. Matsuo seems to be saying that the styling was pretty much complete - but due to changes to accommodate the L24 for Mr. K, changes requested by Engineering to accommodate the independent suspension and add more track width to accommodate snow chains etc.

Mr. Matsuo writes:

"When the time came to incorporate the necessary changes to the body width and so on, I was aided by Mr Tamura with the measurements, but it was very difficult to retain the proportions of the vehicle. Having solved all the detail problems, a clay model was presented towards the end of the Autumn."

All in all - it sounds like Mr. Tamura simply scaled up the original design more so than actually having done the "styling".

I would wonder why Mr. Matsuo gave Mr. Tamura such little mention if Mr. Tamura had contributed so much.

Do you plan to talk to Mr. Matsuo about this?

FWIW,

Carl B.

[HS30-H]

Kats,

Great topic! It's so nice that we are beginning to hear more and more from the 'hands on' people at the core of the team. You are bringing their stories to us. Thank you.

First picture: left to right, Yoshida san, Chiba san, Matsuo san, Tamura san. ( Tamura san looks so young, and Chiba san looks like he is a model for the 'Jun Men' brand. So stylish! )

Second picture: I believe Tamura san on the left, and Matsuo san on the right.

These men ( and a few others ) are largely unsung heroes.

[sblake01]

I would wonder why Mr. Matsuo gave Mr. Tamura such little mention if Mr. Tamura had contributed so much.

Could be because Mr Tamura wasn't seeking 'mention'. It could have been more about the team, so to speak, or the finished product.

[HS30-H]

...but due to changes to accommodate the L24 for Mr. K.....

That should read: "...but due to changes to accommodate the L20A, L24 and S20 engines...."

Carl,

Interviews with the main protagonists in this story would ideally be conducted with them all sitting around the same table at the same time. Relying on ( translated ) answers to translated questions something like 35 years after the fact is not really satisfactory.

I very much doubt we will fully understand exactly who was responsible for each minute detail given that each character naturally has their own take on events. Anyone familiar with Akutagawa Ryunosuke's classic story 'Yabu no naka' ( 'In a bamboo grove' - later used loosely as the basis for the film 'Rashomon', directed by Kurosawa ) will be familiar with the phenomenon.

Alan T.

[kats]

Thank you every one,

I am trying to explain Mr.Tamura's drawings with my poor english skill, it is hard,lots of technical terms ,I need a dictionary and imagination.Even in Japanese word,sometimes it is hard to explain to Japanese people.Or I may not understand what exactly he explains.

Carl,good point.Yes good point.I have to say about it more precisely.

I try to put Mr.Tamura's word as correct as I can.Then please read with your own mind.

All in all - it sounds like Mr. Tamura simply scaled up the original design more so than actually having done the "styling".

I would wonder why Mr. Matsuo gave Mr. Tamura such little mention if Mr. Tamura had contributed so much.

This is what exactly Mr.Tamura has been saying

" I am not the measurements, I do not know why Mr.Matsuo wrote like that in that book".

" I did body surface styling/finalizing from early 1967 to mid 1967,it was made by only one designer, that is me"

"Mr.Matsuo usually gave me subjects,no advise.Change needed from 4 cylinder to 6 cylinder is a kind of that"

"the summer of 1967, S30 body was completed,I did 3 dimension measurement for production preparation,then I was ordered to do computerizing data base of body that was the first introduction of a new system for NISSAN "

Alan,thank you joining and pictures,you can help me a lot more,please.From the Mr.Tamura's drawings,you can read Japanese and please fill in anytime you want to show something us.

I am going to meet and have dinner with Mr.Yoshida and Mr.Tamura on 31th Oct.I will ask what Mr.Tamura's statements is correct and I want to confirm the story of developing S30 styling.

I will ask about same thing to Mr.Matsuo later.

kats

PS:Carl posted the picture, Mr.Tamura told me that picture(and some more)

was taken for "posture".The clay model in the picture had already everything done,even already done for presentation for the executives.That clay was painted before the picture taken for final presentation.After authorized by executives, paint and bumpers etc were removed for measurement for production.

We have seen lots of pictures during S30 development,many of them were taken for the press,I mean "posture".Just intended to show how they are doing in the NISSAN factory.Mr.Tamura told me that.

[Carl Beck]

Could be because Mr Tamura wasn't seeking 'mention'.

Hi Stephen:

He seems to be seeking mention now.

It could have been more about the team, so to speak, or the finished product.

Yes - I see Mr. Matsuo's story of the Z Car as being very "team" oriented - he mentions several of the members as they either started with him, or came along a bit later. He calls Mr. Yoshida his "right-hand man" etc.

Mr. Matsuo writes that in the Summer of 1967 Mr. Yoshida was transfered to another Dept. - and Mr. Matsuo had to continue with the Plan A prototype by himself.

It was only when it came time to incorporate changes and so on that he was aided by Mr. Tamura.

That is a very long way from Mr. Tamura having done the final or finished "styling" of the car.

I guess we will know more as Kats interviews all the people that he can.

I just don't think it is time replace Mr. Matsuo and Mr. Yoshida with Mr. Tamura, as the person that styled the beautiful body lines of the Z Car. Without a whole lot more investigation.

If we can't believe Mr. Matsuo on such an important fact - can we believe anything? I don't see this as a small misunderstanding or slight difference of opinion at this point. Could turn out that way... we'll have to wait and see..

FWIW,

Carl B.

[Carl Beck]

First picture: left to right, Yoshida san, Chiba san, Matsuo san, Tamura san. ( Tamura san looks so young, and Chiba san looks like he is a model for the 'Jun Men' brand. So stylish! )

Hi Alan:

Very interesting picture indeed. The picture in the book (below) seems to have cut Mr. Tamura out... or perhaps it was just an oversight.??

Nonetheless, having worked with many "teams" of people on many design projects - I understand and agree that you can expect to hear different perspectives from different team members related to who contributed what and when.

I do wonder why Mr. Matsuo seems to want to acknowledge everyone in his story of the Z Car - yet so little mention of Mr. Tamura.

An interesting turn of events - and it will be even more interesting to see what comes out of Kats interviews with the people involved..

Anyway I look at it - there seems to be major disagreement in this area between Mr. Matsuo and Mr. Tamura.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[kats]

Hi Carl,

Anyway I look at it - there seems to be major disagreement in this area between Mr. Matsuo and Mr. Tamura.

I think so too, the picture that you posted Mr.Tamura not seen is showing that.

Anyway as esprist mentioned,a car never be able to be born from only one person.

kats

[GrandPrixGreen]

Isn't Bagua a Chinese term?

Yes, it is. In Feng Shui, the bagua is a mental tool or mind-map - more or less than a steamy love novel nor a body-kit.

[Carl Beck]

Anyway as esprist mentioned,a car never be able to be born from only one person.

I think most people believe that.

Unless your name is Albright Goertz - in that case cars are born in the mind of one person if they are to be successful. According to Mr. Goertz only mundane, carbon copies come from environments where "teams" and/or "committees" are involved in the design process.

Mr. Goertz would allow no-one to interfere with "his" designs. He tells us that in several articles related to the subject of design and reinforces it in his autobiography.

One of the striking differences between Goertz and Matsuo is their personal design philosophy. Where Goertz speaks often of his opinion that design is a matter of a singular focus, much the same as the art of Painting. Matsuo tells us a story of how he and his team, adapted too and incorporated the suggestions and requirements that came his way though-out the design process. Indeed the car they finished was all but completely different than the car he started with.

Finished styling is a matter of very subtle changes in form or line making a huge difference in the over-all visual impact. Goertz made what I would consider minor changes to the existing Silvia design - but the changes he made pleased the eye of Management and got the car out of the design studio and into limited production. For that reason Goertz is credited with the design.

If Mr. Tamura is proven correct - that is to say that he alone was responsible for the fine body lines that comprise the finished prototype of the Z Car - - he may well prove Mr. Goertz correct.

On the other hand - if the Z Car final design evolved over time per Mr. Matsuo's story, with different team members contributing, with design requirements changing, and still such a beautiful end result was achieved - then it proves that Mr. Goertz was full of B.S.

Related to the process of design within Nissan, Mr. Matsuo acknowledges right up front that just prior to his taking responsibility for the styling of sports cars - Nissan's design processes were undergoing significant change.

Mr. Matsuo writes: "Anyway. this period saw the introduction of full-sized clay models being employed in the styling room. along with the use of pastels and marker pens for sketches. The whole process of automotive design was in the midst of a radical transformation at the Nissan works"

That is why I believe it is fair to say that Mr. Goertz did provide some benefit to Nissan as far as his design consulting contract goes.

Overall - I believe Mr. Matsuo's story of the Z Car, mostly because when you lay it out on a time line, it is collaborated by events reported elsewhere, by other people.

This will be a very interesting story to follow.

thanks Kats!!

Carl B.

[HS30-H]

Hi Alan:

Very interesting picture indeed. The picture in the book (below) seems to have cut Mr. Tamura out... or perhaps it was just an oversight.??

I don't think we should necessarily read this is any kind of deliberate slight from Matsuo san. The book that your cropped photo was published in wasn't actually written by Katayama and Matsuo ( despite the credits ). Matsuo san told me that it was written by Miki Press staff after many interviews and much correspondence, and Matsuo certainly wasn't responsible for the graphic layout or the English picture captions.

You might notice that the names of the people in the cropped photo you posted are credited differently than those in the uncropped photo I posted. I believe that the caption for the cropped photo in the Miki Press book misidentifies Chiba san as Yoshida san, and calls Yoshida san "Nishikawa". There are several other captioning mistakes in the same book.

I just don't think it is time replace Mr. Matsuo and Mr. Yoshida with Mr. Tamura, as the person that styled the beautiful body lines of the Z Car. Without a whole lot more investigation.

If we can't believe Mr. Matsuo on such an important fact - can we believe anything? I don't see this as a small misunderstanding or slight difference of opinion at this point. Could turn out that way... we'll have to wait and see..

Let's not get carried away with all this. As I have mentioned before, it will be no surprise to hear that the different characters in the proceedings have different recollections of events, and their own perceptions of 'pecking order' will come into play too. Hindsight after 40 and more years is not necessarily 100% factual, and - with Matsuo leaving Nissan under a cloud whilst most of the others stayed on - a certain amount of politics can be expected. For sure, the whole styling and prototyping process will have been a very organic and subjective one.

There's also the name of Yoichi Shitara to remember, as he too is credited with work on some of the exterior clay modelling. Don't see his name mentioned very often....

But at least we know the names of the main protagonists in the story, and we have photos of them at work. Contrast this with the fact that just a few weeks ago another 'Datsun 240Z' article was published in a UK classic car magazine, and - as usual - it implies that Goertz had input into the actual design of the car. It's the same old horse $^!#. The man never drew a single line that ended up on the S30-series Z, and yet we still see credit both given and implied. Crazy.

Alan T.

[kats]

sblake01, GrandPrixGreen,

I did not know about "bagua",I need to search it on the web.

Carl,thank you for interesting comments.

Yes,finalizing is not so big change for someone but,it makes a big difference.

I put pictures,please take a look carefully,especially TypeACearly and TypeAClate.

Do you think S30 would get huge success if the car would roll out in these body surface?

However I really love Type C.

kats

Edited October 27, 2009 by kats