Who actually did S30's styling? We can make it clear

[Carl Beck]

I put pictures,please take a look carefully,especially TypeACearly and TypeAClate.

Do you think S30 would get huge success if the car would roll out in these body surface?

Hi Kats:

Yes - I believe that had the Z Car been produced with the styling of either ACearly or AClate, the same number of Datsun 240Z's could have been sold here in the U.S/Canada.

While neither of the two styles are as refined as the final form - they are both relatively modern and good looking. Styling of a Hatchback/Fastback Coupe was only one factor that drove sales. Others, as important were performance, reliability and utility. Driver and passenger ergonomics also offered a huge advantage over other Sports/GT's in the same class.

Datsun 240Z sales here in North America, for all four model years of 1970, 71, 72 and 73 were only 155,000 units. Put another way - during the 1970 Model Year alone, people bought 198,229 Mustangs and 124,901 Camaros. The size of the U.S. market was such that it could have easily absorbed two to three times the number sold here.

While the Datsun 240Z was a huge success for Nissan and the Datsun Dealers at the time, it represented a very small percentage of the potential new car market here in North America.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Edited October 28, 2009 by Carl Beck

[GrandPrixGreen]

"He did every body panel detailed styling.Not only surface,he created bumper,over rider,front grill etc." (from kats first post)

My question: Does this include the front & rear spoiler in the work of Mr. Tamura - and to what extent?

I feel this details, as the car as whole, are very designed/studied and "worked out" in propositions and harmony - the same simple & complex last touch

The S30 ended up with some refinement - that something, that her italian siblings actually where missing out on blended in their own beauty ala extravaganza rather than harmony.

Edited October 29, 2009 by GrandPrixGreen

[kats]

Hello Gary,

Thanks to Chris,Ghibli debut 1967, Mr.Matsuo's team saw the car so that prototype C was quit but it's roof and rear section was joined to the Type A.

I think If they did not see the Ghibli,S30 could have be different style...

GrandPrixGreen,I will ask Mr.Tamura those parts were designed by him or not.

Carl, thank you for the comment,and you like the TypeAC ,really?

I am happy I can have production model ,not Type AC

31th is coming soon.

kats

[Carl Beck]

Hi Kats:

You ask if AC would have sold as well - - I replied that I thought it would have. I didn't say that I liked them as well as the final form.

At dinner the 31st. Please ask Mr. Tamura and Mr. Yoshida what they can tell us - about this prototype produced at Yamaha - it has a Nissan Logo on the hood.

Mr. Goertz wrote in his autobiography...

"The metal prototype produced to my design and specifications was shipped to Nissan and the project came to a halt" - - See First Picture Below... that is the picture released by Nisssan of the metal prototype.

Then, later in the same book, Mr. Goetz writes ..."In addition to the metal prototype developed by Yamaha to my design, Nissan made a Fiberglass version of it"..... {Goertz does not show pictures of either one}

Mr. Goertz tells us that he continued his work at Nissan, after the Joint Nissan/Yamaha Development Project was ended. Working on a couple different cars, which included a possible replacement for the 16000 roadster.

Shin shows us a Fiberglass prototype at Yamaha - -in his book "Toyota 2000 GT". Pictures of this car are always shown at Yamaha. - See the Second Picture Below...

Several years ago - this second car was shown on the Yamaha Web Site in their "History Section" - it has been removed since then for some reason. It has always been shown with the NISSAN logo on the hood...

The question is - where did the fiberglass prototype originate? Was this an evolution or refinement of the Goertz design, completed at Yamaha, before Goertz left Nissan? Or was this a design originated and completed by Yamaha? In either case Mr. Goertz seems to have believed it was his work.

Edited October 30, 2009 by Carl Beck

[FilipeA]

Hi Kats

That is a great post! Keep us updating, ok?

Thanks

Filipe

[RIP260Z]

Hi Carl,

I was trying to hold back from saying anything, as to take away from an interesting S30 thread....

I would (as you know) take what Goertz says with a bucket load of salt.

Translated (professionally) from Japanese Nostalgic Hero magazine (Nov.1995 Vol. 51). "Rumours have appeared that it was Goertz who designed the Silvia, Nissan A550X". The article this is taken from, was written with "special thanks to Kimura Kazuo" as an effort at putting the record straight for the Silvia (CSP311) design.

It would appear Kimura had as much, if not more input on this (A550X) project as Goertz, especially when you include looking at his actual time in Japan (Goertz), let alone at say, at Yamaha.

If you look at the timeline(s), Goertz contract with Nissan was from May 1963, for one year, thus ending May 1964. The A550X project was started just before the CSP311 project, probably the first few months on 1963, then halted (in May) to concentrate on the CSP311 prototype. The A550X was restarted in the spring of 1964. Either Goertz worked outside his contract until the Nissan/Yamaha partnership ended in September 1964 (unlikely), or gave some input, or just happened to have everything done within limited time visits before the end of his contract (one visit?)? Most likely just some input....?

[kats]

Hi Filipe:)

Carl,I will ask that to them,hope we will have a good answer.

I think you are not trying to say Mr.Goertz did design S30's body.

But are you trying to say Mr.Goertz's that prototype could have an influence to S30's body?

I agree Carl that Mr.Goertz introduced a method of styling by clay model to Nissan,that was a benefit to Nissan.

But I remember Mr.Matsuo and other Nissan designers were saying that they saw the prototype once or twice,they did not think that prototype was cool,looked very skinny and too much old fashioned.They thought they could build more nicer car than that.

Of course Nissan designers knew there were lots of beautiful sport scars around the world.

I think even if Mr.Geortz was not hired the Nissan, the designers of Nissan would have created sports cars.They already had a mind what is a beautiful sports car.

Please stay tune,tomorrow night will be fun.

kats

[Carl Beck]

Carl,I will ask that to them,hope we will have a good answer.

I think you are not trying to say Mr.Goertz did design S30's body.

But are you trying to say Mr.Goertz's that prototype could have an influence to S30's body?

Hi Kats:

Neither one.

Mr. Matsuo tells us that by the time he took over the Sports Car Styling Studio - Mr. Kimua who had worked with Mr. Goertz, had left and that nothing from the Yamaha/Nissan project was carried over.

Mr. Goertz himself tells us that the design groups within Nissan were segmented, so that ideas and concepts were intentionally not shared between/among them. {this is done to promote individual creativity and produce a broad range of alternatives}

What I am saying is that "IF" the Yamaha A550-X was indeed work directed by or created by Mr. Goertz at Yamaha - and years later he saw the Datsun 240Z for the first time - I can see and understand why Goertz believed it was an evolution of his design.

If Mr. Goertz showed pictures of the finished Yamaha A550-X to others {like the press in NY} and they then saw the Datsun 240Z for the first time - they would also believe it was Goertz work. Especially if none of Matsuo's work was provided at the time.

Take the Yamaha A550-X and as Mr. Matsuo said - raise the hood line for the L24 that Katayama wanted, then make the car wider for the Automatic Transmission behind the L24 - and the result would be pretty close to the overall "styling" of the Z Car with headlight covers blended in. Even the grill looks the same.

On the other hand - if the Yamaha A550-X was actually done by someone else at Yamaha.. and you look only at the metal prototype built to Goertz specifications ie the Nissan 2000GT - it looks NOTHING like the final form of the Z Car.

I'm just wondering if Mr. Goertz was a complete fraud -claiming work that wasn't his - - or if he simply believe that what he was looking at when he saw the Z - was the direct result of his work.

So I'd really like to know if the A550-X was in fact Goertz styling... Knowing the truth might help to explain the "Goertz Myth" in a way that the Goertz Believers could accept.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Edited October 30, 2009 by Carl Beck

[Carl Beck]

Hi Kats:

When you have dinner the 31st. You might want to ask your dinner guests if they knew anyone at G.K.Design. G.K.Design did some work with Yamaha - and that final good looking prototype at Yamaha, may have had some of G.K.Design's work rather than Mr. Goertz.

Also - search www.nissan-glabal.com/JP/CITIZENSHIP/

and see if you can find Mr. Setsuraku.

FWIW,

Carl B.

[kats]

Hi,

I really enjoyed meeting Mr.Yoshida and Mr.Tamura ,we all had a goo time.

1st picture,Mr.Yoshida when he was in the team.

2nd picture, left Mr.Yoshida , right Mr.Tamura(he looked not happy? he did enjoy so much but he always does not like taken picture)

3rd picture,left is kats,right is Mr.Matsui(he works for Fuji industry (Subaru) as a designer)

kats

[kats]

To begin with,I have to pass these words all of you from Mr.Yoshida,he is very very modest gentleman.He talked very tenderly but very clearly.

"S30 design was totally created and developped by Japanese people,people in the Nissan,members in the sports car studio,we never had have been taught by Mr.Goertz about S30 styling,we never had have been inspired by the A550-X for styling S30.

Mr.Goertz had left Nissan before the S30 project,we had no-relation with him at all "

"It is too much abrupt for saying A550-X resemble to S30,they are completely different car, S30 had taken cared of 100 times more than A550-X had.I never felt A550-X was a great looking car,I thought the car was in just on the half way of its completion. Each time Mr.Goertz visited Nissan was limited time schedule,I knew Mr.Goertz could not take care of the car like we do.The results was his best at that time."

"I did CSP311 interior,that was totaly my work.

And, I did A550-X interior only me.

A550-X was always in Yamaha,so I went to Yamaha manytimes to do work. I was only one in the S30 design team who saw the car undergoing in Yamaha factory."

"A550-X project was a seacret like other car, so that no one out side of Yamaha would know the car.

I do not remember clearly,but #1 and #2 prototype were made of metal,#3 was made of Plastic.

I do not know one of them arrived at Nissan or not,anyway S30 designers never seen A550-X in the Nissan factory.(Mr.Tamura also said he never saw A550-X during his work"

"I think A550-X was oriented from Mr.Goertz"

kats

Edited November 1, 2009 by kats

[kats]

Mr.Yoshida kindly let me bring his file home,I show some of them.

His sketch,pistures,news paper(saying going on sale 20th DEC 1969) e.t.c.

Last picture,this 240Z must be the one on the display stand at Tokyo motor show.Note the tire is not Bridgestone,they are DUNLOP GRAND SPEED CS1 /6.45-14. At that time there was Bridgestone superspeed radial 20-175SR14 already applied to 240Z by seeing other pictures,so this fact could be a good reason of the car could be an EURO car.

kats