Who actually did S30's styling? We can make it clear

[26th-Z]

I agree, kats. The last picture looks identical to the car from the Tokyo show. Great pictures! Many thanks. I can tell by your smile that you had a great time!

[kats]

Thanks Chris!

kats

[Carl Beck]

Hi Kats:

Wonderful new information - Thanks! - it is great to see Mr. Yoshida's notes.

Also very interesting to hear that Mr. Yoshida worked on both the Silvia and A550-X. Up until now, the only person that I recall, said to have worked on both Projects from Nissan was Mr. Kimura. That may be a clue about Nissan's legal statement to Mr. Goertz.

Very good job Kats. You should have been a Private Investigator {Private Eye} to track down all these people ;-)

FWIW,

Carl B.

[RIP260Z]

Hi Kats,

I did find out Yoshida did the interior of the Silvia. I have found another name linked to the Silvia project, Ogura Hisateru, but I can't find what his role was. Would it be possible to ask Yoshida what role Ogura did (if any)? Or does anybody know?

Regards

Ian

[kats]

Thank you Carl,

I saw your baja 240Z in a book store nere my house,"Nostalgic Hero".Congratulations!!

Hi Ian,

That day 31th was a special day for all of Nissan fans,there was a forum of car design of Nissan at Hiratsuka city art museum.Lots of old sketches , tools of car design, clay models, and cars were displayed.

And what a special was, talking about historical car design by designers.

I was not there, I missed it so much (Ian you would also) there were lots of important people of Nissan car design, Mr.Kimura (CSP311) was there and,

Mr.Kimura's talking was just great.

He told CSP311 was his design,after completion of its styling , Mr.Goertz joined the project. Mr.Goertz did change rear quater piller shape.

Other body styling was "my design".

kats

[hls30.com]

Kats,

I want to say thank you for sharing with all of us what you have found, and experienced.

Your efforts are most appreciated, and your results most thoroughly enjoyed!

Thank You.

Will

[RIP260Z]

Hi Kats,

Thank you for the information. All useful, I am trying to write a more correct historical (conception/design/launch) website page for the CSP311. Old Goertz dribble does not help things. Anything else you come across while speaking to anyone connected would be great.

Cheers

Ian

[HS30-H]

Fantastic work, Kats. Thank you!

Yoshida san's statement ( with his strong words about Goertz ) is going to be very useful for the future. We can be sure that more journalists will make the same "designed by Goertz" mistake we have read so many times, so the more first-hand quotes from the real people concerned the better.

Nice too to see Kimura san once again stating that he had almost finalised the CSP311's styling before Goertz became involved, and Yoshida san confirm that he worked on the CSP311's interior. Nostalgic Hero magazine published Kimura san's side of the story some years ago, but few non-Japanese journalists got the message.....

I'm just wondering if Mr. Goertz was a complete fraud -claiming work that wasn't his - - or if he simply believe that what he was looking at when he saw the Z - was the direct result of his work.

Carl,

Speaking only for myself, I have always been amazed that Goertz had the brass neck to accept the plaudits for the styling of the S30-series Z when he must have known that not a single line, and not a single detail on it was from his pen. As an experienced stylist ( even calling him a 'designer' is a little tenuous ) with an educated eye, he must surely have known beyond all shadow of doubt that the Z was not his. His later story ( the "they designed it, but I showed them how" version ) pretty much acknowledges this, I believe. I can't imagine that he really did believe that the Z was related in any way to his 'designs', but he may very well have believed that he deserved some kind of recognition for the time he spent at Nissan ( and Yamaha ).

Goertz was a very complex and wily individual, and certainly knew how to turn situations to his own advantage. He exploited the fact that Japanese company staff were not going to be seeking any limelight in that period, and he exploited the - very real - language gap which meant that the truth about his real work in Japan was obscured.

I'm convinced that Goertz believed he had been contracted by Nissan as a stylist / designer, and that he would be styling and designing when he was there. In actual fact, he seems to have spent most of his time there ( a total measured in weeks, let's not forget ) demonstrating the latest methods in 3D modelling and clays, and making slight changes to the work of others. The styling projects he was involved in did not come to mainstream production, so he felt - some time down the line - that he needed to rescue something out of it all for himself. Associating himself with the S30-series Z did just that. Job done.

I don't know why everybody is usually so polite about Goertz. I think he knew what he was doing, and had plenty of opportunities to give credit where credit was most certainly due. He didn't, and that's why I don't respect him.

Alan T.

[Carl Beck]

Carl,

Speaking only for myself, I have always been amazed that Goertz had the brass neck to accept the plaudits for the styling of the S30-series Z when he must have known that not a single line, and not a single detail on it was from his pen. As an experienced stylist ( even calling him a 'designer' is a little tenuous ) with an educated eye, he must surely have known beyond all shadow of doubt that the Z was not his. His later story ( the "they designed it, but I showed them how" version ) pretty much acknowledges this, I believe. I can't imagine that he really did believe that the Z was related in any way to his 'designs', but he may very well have believed that he deserved some kind of recognition for the time he spent at Nissan ( and Yamaha ).

Hi Alan:

On the above point - we are pretty much in agreement.

For the people following along -I'll add to your summary:

I think it is important we keep in mind that there is a significant difference in one's expectations, when the decision to hire a "Designer" or hire a "Design Consultant" is made.

When Prince Motors hired Michelotti or when Nissan hired Pinnfarina, they hired a Designer and contracted him to deliver a finished design. When BMW hired Goertz, they contracted him to deliver a finished design. In all three cases these men had a more-or-less clean slate, although all were constrained by the ability of their employers to produce any specific design.

That is quite different than hiring a Design Consultant. The process of Consulting involves working with someone, or some team, with the intention of not doing the work for them, but rather leading them to improve their design processes. This is usually facilitated by improved talent, tools and techniques applied to the design process. One idea being that if you improve the entire process, you will automatically improve the output of that process.

Goertz was a very complex and wily individual, and certainly knew how to turn situations to his own advantage. He exploited the fact that Japanese company staff were not going to be seeking any limelight in that period, and he exploited the - very real - language gap which meant that the truth about his real work in Japan was obscured.

Agreed. I would only add - that because of his immense personal ego, his all but complete lack of success in formal education, combined with a very real high intelligence level - - Mr. Goertz looked down his nose at most people surrounding him. In Goertz's mind - "peasants are such fools and so easily mislead" The group of fools were for the most part the Automotive Press that surrounded him in New York and gave him a public voice. Followed by too many authors of books on the subject - that also failed to do due diligence in their research.

I'm convinced that Goertz believed he had been contracted by Nissan as a stylist / designer, and that he would be styling and designing when he was there. In actual fact, he seems to have spent most of his time there ( a total measured in weeks, let's not forget ) demonstrating the latest methods in 3D modelling and clays, and making slight changes to the work of others. The styling projects he was involved in did not come to mainstream production, so he felt - some time down the line - that he needed to rescue something out of it all for himself. Associating himself with the S30-series Z did just that. Job done.

The first mention of Goertz working for Nissan that I have, is an Article titled "a designer decries THE SAMENESS IN '66". It was published in Automobile Quarterly.

I think Mr. Goertz understood the role of "consultant" and/or "critic" fairly well - although I agree that he saw himself as "a designer" first and foremost.

- - - - Quoted From The Article - - - -

"A consultant points out the possible direction a design might take"; Goertz explained. "A staff designer must then work out the final concept based on what is selected and what modifications are to be made. The consultant has one great advantage in not being a regularly employed staff desiger. He can say to the president of the company, "you are wrong", and not worry abou losing his place in the company chart. A staff designer would be required to submit a proposal to his chief, who might then discuss it with a second vice-president, who would in turn consult with a first vice-president, until it finally reached the top - completely different from what it was originally."

Mr. Goertz emphasized that though an outside-designer might not be allowed to proceed with and build the design he creates, his ideals and suggestions could well be influential in determining the style and configuration of future designs.

- - - - - End Quote - - - - - -

I don't know why everybody is usually so polite about Goertz. I think he knew what he was doing, and had plenty of opportunities to give credit where credit was most certainly due. He didn't, and that's why I don't respect him.

Speaking only for myself - I know that Mr. Goertz life story is one of very great UP's and Down's". I have to admire his self confidence, intellect and artistic ability. All of which he used in great measures to take care of himself. Smart enough to see the hand writing on the wall, at age 19 in Germany - he fled to the US via England. Became an American, served in the US Army during WW-II - while his Mother and Older Brother {the real Count} stayed in Germany only to wind up in Death Camps for Jews. Through his own hard work {which included managing his image} he did become a fairly well known Industrial Designer {among tens of thousands of nameless, faceless working industrial designers}. Much of his design work is admired to this day. For all of that, I have to say that there is much about the man, that I admire.

On the other hand - he was a self-centered egomaniac. A cunning manipulator of people that foolishly thought of themselves as his friends. He was bitter about the manor in which his peers in the design community treated him. In that regard, I actually pity him. Such talent, opportunity and success never lead him to very much real personal happiness.

Respect? - - No, I think that had I been face to face with Mr. Goertz, I would have seemed very disrespectful to him. I'm sure he would not have liked me one bit.

I think it is interesting that his description of how things work in the corporate world given in 1966 - line up with Mr. Matsuo's story told years later.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Carl Beck

[Carl Beck]

Thank you Carl,

I saw your baja 240Z in a book store nere my house,"Nostalgic Hero".Congratulations!!

Hi Kats:

Thank-you. I am most happy that the Z Car Enthusiasts in Japan could see the BRE Baja Z. It was not widely known here in the US, as coverage of the Baja competitions were limited to a few speciality publications circulated mostly in California and the Western States at the time; I'm sure it was all but unheard of in Japan.

Getting back to the subject of Mr. Tamura. At dinner with Mr. Tamura and Mr. Yoshida, did they both seem to agree that Mr. Tamura should be credited with the final or finished styling of the original Z Car?

I also worry that the use of the term or name "A550-X" could represent at least two different designs, unless pictures of them were used to clearly identify them, by the people speaking.

It seems that Mr Yoshida is saying that both the metal prototype and the fiberglass prototype kept at Yamaha are both part the A550-X Project.

Mr. Matsuo's statement; "I never felt A550-X was a great looking car,I thought the car was in just on the half way of its completion."

I would say that if he is talking about the metal prototype, that was delivered to Nissan, then Yes - that was NOT great looking, and Yes it was half way to its completion.

If you showed the picture of the Fiberglass Prototype kept at Yamaha - then I do not understand how Mr. Matsuo could look at that car and think it was not a great looking car. Also it is most certainly finished - it could be driven around...

As I look at sketches of the Fiberglass Yamaha A550-X and now see sketches from Mr. Yoshida's notebook - I see two cars that look very very much alike. {picture below}

What do you think?

FWIW,

Carl

[kats]

Hi Carl,

Last October, at the dinner Mr.Yoshida and Mr.Tamura they both agreed that

Mr.Tamura did final body styling of the S30, Mr.Yoshida told us about Mr.Tamura's great job when they were joined the project.

Mr. Matsuo's statement; "I never felt A550-X was a great looking car,I thought the car was in just on the half way of its completion."

I would say that if he is talking about the metal prototype, that was delivered to Nissan, then Yes - that was NOT great looking, and Yes it was half way to its completion.

If you showed the picture of the Fiberglass Prototype kept at Yamaha - then I do not understand how Mr. Matsuo could look at that car and think it was not a great looking car. Also it is most certainly finished - it could be driven around...

As I look at sketches of the Fiberglass Yamaha A550-X and now see sketches from Mr. Yoshida's notebook - I see two cars that look very very much alike. {picture below}

What do you think?

Carl, that statement was from Mr.Yoshida.I think Mr.Yoshida does not know Fiberglass body was made in Nissan or not.

I see Mr.Yoshida's sketche, I think he draw this car from CSP311, front section looked same.

For me, A550-X has same front section oriented CSP311 which was designed by Mr.Kimura.

As I told before, CSP311 was designed by Mr.Kimura. Mr.Goertz joined CSP311project after completion of its styling.Mr.Goertz did change around C piller section.That is the only work by him which influenced to styling.

I think Mr.Goertz borrowed CSP311 front styling for A550-X:)

kats

[RIP260Z]

For me, A550-X has same front section oriented CSP311 which was designed by Mr.Kimura.

I think Mr.Goertz borrowed CSP311 front styling for A550-X

Or maybe Kimura "borrowed" the front styling from the CSP311 for the A550-X?