Who actually did S30's styling? We can make it clear

[Carl Beck]

Hi Carl,

Last October, at the dinner Mr.Yoshida and Mr.Tamura they both agreed that

Mr.Tamura did final body styling of the S30, Mr.Yoshida told us about Mr.Tamura's great job when they were joined the project.

Hi Kats:

Thanks for the clarification - if Mr. Yoshida and Mr. Tamura agree - then Mr. Tamura should be listed everywhere as having done the final body styling.

Carl, that statement was from Mr.Yoshida.I think Mr.Yoshida does not know Fiberglass body was made in Nissan or not.

My mistake - Mr. Yoshida. I understand what he is saying now. Shin is convinced, buy original drawings found during his research at Yamaha on the Toyota 2000GT - that the Finished Fiberglass Yamaha A550-X was designed for Yamaha by GK Design {Iwataro Koike}, and was no part of the Joint Yamaha/Nissan Project.

A side note - As far as I know - at this point - Mr. Goertz is the person that originally circulated the photograph's of the Yamaha A550-X sitting beside a Datsun Roadster in the warehouse. He did this with the comment "look at this"... letting the reader believe that Goertz was pointing to a design of his... but as usual without actually saying that...

I see Mr.Yoshida's sketche, I think he draw this car from CSP311, front section looked same.

For me, A550-X has same front section oriented CSP311 which was designed by Mr.Kimura.

Yes - now that you mention it - I can see the similarities in the front end of the two.

But Mr. Yoshida's sketch looks far more overall like the drawings of the GK Design A550-X... Mr. Matsuo's Plan A sketch is far more evolved. {no vent wing, covered headlights, no "B" pillar etc}.

I think Mr.Goertz borrowed CSP311 front styling for A550-X:)

I think it is now quite clear that Mr. Goertz had nothing what so ever to do with the A550-X - and that the metal prototype {pictured below} represents the Nissan 2000GT - built by Yamaha for Nissan, and which was delivered to Nissan - does in fact represent the extent of Mr. Goertz involvement.

I had thought that given Goertz's ego - he might have actually believed everything was an evolution of "his" designs... but at this point I think Alan's hard stance on the subject has to be considered correct. Goertz had to have known that the GK Design had nothing to do with his involvement - and he was a complete fraud to have circulated pictures of it....{which he did without comment}...

Very Interesting discussion - thanks for bringing it up and following though on it.

FWIW,

Carl B.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Carl Beck

[lubu]

Awesome read, very informative. Thank you so much for this.

[GrandPrixGreen]

Awesome read, very informative. Thank you so much for this.

[olzed]

Thanks for everyones efforts. The Goertz rubbish still persists in NZ.

Only 8 years ago a prominent classic car mag. which should know better

did an article on the zed and stated Goertz was the designer.:stupid:

[kats]

Or maybe Kimura "borrowed" the front styling from the CSP311 for the A550-X?

Hi Ian,

It could not be happned ,the time sequence is CSP311 came first then A550-X.

When Mr.Goertz hired by Nissan,CSP311 styling was mostly completed.

He cahnged CSP311's C-piller design,but that is an only job by him.

kats

[kats]

Sorry Ian,

I misunderstood what you are saying.

I do not know Mr.Kimura was doing design for A550-X with Mr.Goertz.

We can not say "that would never happned" until we hear from Mr.Kimura.

Or do you know already something about that?

kats

Edited August 8, 2010 by kats

[bpilati]

Thats great information. I will always look on my car and others like it as a thing of beauty. Everyone always says they are a knock off of the e-type etc. but the lines and shape are unique. To think about someone coming up with the idea and taking it from that idea to production is amazing. Mr.Tamura is definitely someone that gets my praise and awe for what he did. Thanks.

carl

Carl, I agree. There were many popular styling features used by various car makers during the 1960's. Yes, the Jaguar E-Type had a long nose, very characteristic of sports car with inline-six engines. It also served to balance weight front and rear. A hatchback design gave cars an aerodynamic look, as well as provided utility space. If sugar scoop headlight pods weren't used, then either popup lights or having a look like the Datsun 240Z Rally car is what we would be stuck with.

So to those that say Matsuo, et al stole styling features from other companies is to say that these features could not have been arrived at by common engineering practices in order to achieve the styling and performance goals set by Nissan. Were they competing with other car makers, of course! Extend the nose of a 2000 Roadster and tell me you wouldn't have sugar scoops. The car is a two-seater that would naturally have a long engine bay for the given engine available. The Z was unique for sure.

[bpilati]

Hi Kats:

Great story...

Can you tell us which one of these men is Mr.Tamura?

Or if he is not in that picture - do you have any pictures of him working on the car?

thanks,

Carl B.

I wonder what happens to these clay models.

[bpilati]

Do I see a 5 lug wheel in some photos?

[RIP260Z]

Kats,

Sorry seemed to somehow miss your questions a while ago. Without sidelining the S30 thread which this is:

It could not be happned ,the time sequence is CSP311 came first then A550-X

Not according to Shin Yoshikawa's Toyota 200GT book, the Datsun 1500 Coupe project (e.g CSP311) stopped the A550x project that had been running for a few months. Why, the CSP311 project wanted to be finished to be shown at the Tokyo Motor Show of that year. And according to Shin, the A550X only started again once the CSP was nearly finished, probably the spring of 1964. (as a side note, just about when Goertz's 1 yr contact was up).

I do not know Mr.Kimura was doing design for A550-X with Mr.Goertz.

We can not say "that would never happned" until we hear from Mr.Kimura.

Or do you know already something about that?

Yes, need to hear directly from Kimura or someone close on the project. In Japanese Nostalgic Hero (Vol. 51 Nov.1995), which was written with Kimura's co-operation "rumours have appeared that it was Geortz who designed the Silvia and A550X"

If the A550X project start before the Silvia and a few months prior, then at an educated guess, the A550X project started on the very late months of 1962/early months of 1963. This obviously started before Goertz was around, so who was doing the design?

Kats, I have only scratched the surface of the Silvia design/development, so much yet to uncover...best leave it there and let the thread title discussion carry on.

[HS30-H]

In Japanese Nostalgic Hero (Vol. 51 Nov.1995), which was written with Kimura's co-operation "rumours have appeared that it was Geortz who designed the Silvia and A550X".

Ian,

Just to make it clear for anybody who hasn't seen that Nos. Hero article, the whole point of the article is that Goertz didn't design the CSP311 Silvia Coupe.

The article - which, as you point out, Kimura co-operated with - shed some light on the fact that Kimura and others had all but finalised the design and styling of the CSP311 a good while before Goertz had got his foot through the door at Nissan. The only major change after Goertz turned up was the slight re-shaping of the rear pillars....

I believe Yamaha finished the first CSP311 prototype before the 15th October 1963 deadline that they had been given, but that Nissan decided not to show it at that year's Tokyo show?

I have a big hunch that there's still more of the A550X story to be revealed, and that - given his track record - we can't trust a single word that Goertz ever uttered about his time with Nissan / Yamaha / The Yasukawa Institute.

Alan T.

[RIP260Z]

Hi Alan,

Ah, thanks for clarifying, re-reading it from a blank point of view it leads to ambiguity if not pointed out which direction the statement is intended.

I believe Yamaha finished the first CSP311 prototype before the 15th October 1963 deadline that they had been given, but that Nissan decided not to show it at that year's Tokyo show?

From what I can gather so far, this is correct, maybe even finishing the first prototype on the day before the Tokyo show.