Ignition overkill

[IdahoKidd]

I have been reading tons of posts on here about all the ignition "improvements" one can do to the 240 and 280's. ( I am working on both at the same time-ugh!).

In real world application, it seems much of the effort and expense on the 240's is over kill. Is there really a significant gain in going beyond a pertronix and good coil? It is hard for me to believe that one will ever recover the benefits of spending more money on it than that. I could be wrong, have been before, but when I used to fool with SBC's, the only time it might be worth the money is when we were running 9 seconds or less and there was money involved at the finish line, and never on the street. No one ever beat me between street lights because they were running an MSD or Supercoil, or ??? It just seems that most of the people on this board have cars that are drivers and the money would be better spent on other mods.

I am still working on the learning curve on the 280's and the whole fuel injection issues with spark, but by and large the same thought applies. KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) works the best, has the least hassle and the most bang for the buck.

I am looking for a compelling argument otherwise. "Cool" factor doesn't count Convince me I am wrong.

Thanks,

Leonard

[FastWoman]

Er, well, I guess you're talking about me.

In my case, the MSD unit was to be a replacement for an OEM unit that was on its way out. I could get the MSD for less than a refurb OEM unit, so that seemed a better deal to me. My decision not to go with the module-in-distributor type design was based on difficulty with heat dissipation. Besides that, I already had a new/rebuilt OEM distributor and didn't want to buy another one.

I didn't know about the GM HEI adaptation, or I might have done that first. It works great for a daily driver, which is what I have. If I were hotrodding, I think I'd still go for the MSD. I really have to say that I'm quite impressed with the vibrant spark the MSD unit generates. I mean, if the MSD unit won't ignite it, it can't be burnt!

Peace,

Sarah

PS Cool factor DOES count, at least for some folks! It's not the family station wagon, after all!

[Arne]

Depends on your build. For an engine with higher compression, more aggressive cam, etc., there are probably measurable benefits to having a the more aggressive spark. Probably not nearly as noticeable on a mildly built motor, and for a car like mine that is totally stock (right down to the smog pump) probably little reason at all.

I'm quite happy with the Pertronix in my 240Z. But performance-wise, my car is just about as tame as a 240Z gets these days.

[Pomorza]

I'm going to agree with IdahoKidd here. I bought my Z all of three months ago and I plan on keeping it as stock as possible. I don't see the point really of having some fancy ignition system on a mainly stock car. I've tried doing all those huge ignition updates to my jeep when I owned it. Really didn't see that much of a difference until I hit the high RPM range (which is like 4k on those;)). Up to that point it really didn't make a noticeable difference really. To me unless you have a built motor or race your car and keep it way in the upper RPM range I don't think a fancy super duper ignition system is required.

But IdahoKidd I'm going to have to say no one has to convince you that your wrong. You are right and wrong at the same time. For you a good dizzy and a good coil are the way to go. For someone else every bit of horse power counts and a good coil and good dizzy just don't keep up at 7k.

I'm not exactly sure what I have on my car. For what it looks like its whatever came with the car in 1976. It gets my car going, and does what it was designed to do. Would it hold up with running at 7k all day at a track, probably not. Could it be better, of course. It all depends on what you need it for and what you want in the end. Simple as that mate.

Jan

oh and the cool factor should always be a factor. A double distributor, twelve spark plug dual coil set up looks soo much cooler than any MSD or stock set up. More of a hassle and totally not worth it in the end but man does it look cool.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Pomorza

[IdahoKidd]

Nah Sarah, I wasn't pointing at you. In way, I think it is cool to experiment and come up with solutions outside the box. But, I read posts here and on other sites where the guys are so hung up on what they are going to gain with all this complex mix and match ignition stuff and then post questions here as to why it doesn't work. ( I have a 77 dizzy with an 81 pickup coil and a turbo this or that and no spark, etc) Some of these guys have hundreds of dollars into guessing what is going to work. Maybe I am just a little jealous I don't have those kind of bucks to throw out. I just had a kid, probably 20ish, tell me that he just bolted on at least 50 hp by changing to an MSD ignition. (I wish it were that easy) I think Arne is pretty much dead on when he says if you have enough other complimentary parts it might make a difference, but most of us don't have that type of motor, and not meaning to offend anyone, if we did, we probably wouldn't be asking here about how to get spark. Sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way, it just seems there have been a bunch of redundant and ultimately meaningless questions about ignitions.

[Walter Moore]

The points distributor that came on the 240Z was an early attempt at emissions control, so it has a funky advance curve. The other issue is that points distributors always end up eating the bearings because of the side load produced by the points themselves.

I ended up with two points distributors, neither of which had a working vacuum advance, so I went the ZX upgrade path, and I suspect that the complexities you mention may relate to some of my posts trying to sort it out.

What I do know is that after I got it working the car runs WAY better than it did before. It spins better at high RPM and pulls way better at low RPM. How much of that is just due to having a working vacuum advance, and good bearings versus the re-curving work that I did on the distributor I cannot possibly say.

My expectation is that the whole distributor upgrade concept is going to have more effect on an early 240Z than it would on a late 280Z.

But I will not criticize anyone for the choices they make on their restoration/upgrade path. I just published my results to help others has so many on this site have helped me.

[FastWoman]

No offense taken, Idaho. I admit the MSD is overkill for most applications, including mine. It did look nice under the hood, though!

I have to say, in hindsight, that my experience is a lot like Walter's. I've completely redone the ignition in my car, and now it runs a LOT stronger. Everything I changed out seemed to improve the picture a bit more. The new distributor was maybe 20% of it. NGK plugs and wires were maybe another 20%. The new coil was perhaps 40%. The new ignition module was the remaining 20. Perhaps the ignition module proved to be a bit more important in the low RPM end. Dunno. Anyway, it made a world of difference.

I'm hoping new injectors will do some good too. I'm not expecting miracles, but I do expect some improvement in fuel economy. I'm thinking that the injectors will pay for themselves over the next few years in fuel savings.

[70 Cam Guy]

On my 240, I'm running a ZX distributor and installed a Blaster 2 coil today. I was stranded by my points once, and after the engine cut out in the driveway I wanted to update the ignition. I was looking at the pertronix but found a ZX dizzy at a wrecking yard for $75. I bought the MSD coil yesterday for $40 after reading many people say the original coil should not be run without the resistor.

I love that the car starts on the first crank (after its 1st start in the morning) and the engine definitely revs more freely compared to the points distributor. I imagine the spark is hot enough to handle pretty much any plans I have at this point. If I really want to invest more on the ignition at this point, I'm going with wasted spark for more precision and tuning ability. My friends have a module on their Toyota race car that lets them adjust the timing with a pocket screwdriver. Tune it on the dyno, done.

On my old Camaro I ran a Proform billet HEI dizzy and a 6AL box. I wanted the reliability of the electronic ignition, the hot spark for my compression and cam, and the soft limiter from the 6AL. It ran hard and started easy, I'll take a Demon carb and HEI any time.

Edited November 9, 2009 by 70 Cam Guy